In article
<d388e94a-d220-4ade-9bb6-***@n31g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>,
"***@gmail.com" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > For time, instruction is free but our glider rental for the trainers is
> > $36-39/hour depending on which one you're in, so that works out to be
> > pretty much the same, and you'll get a better deal there once you can
> > start flying solo. (Our trainers are more modern fiberglass, somewhat
> > nicer than the Blanik you were in, which probably accounts for the
> > difference.) For completeness, our fiberglass single-seater is $24/hour
> > and our metal single-seater is $15/hour.
>
> Wow, never realized there was a difference in composition of the
> glider. They just repanted the Blanik so the eyecandy was real nice!
> I was fascinated the body of the glider was metal and the control
> surfaces were fabric.
Fiberglass started being used in gliders in the 70s and really took over
in the 80s. The exterior is so much smoother and it allows much better
control of shape that it's a huge performance win.
I think the fabric control surfaces are probably because aerodynamic
flutter is a major concern. Reducing the weight of the control surfaces
pushes up the speed where flutter will happen.
> > > I am really, really considering this option :-) If so, there will be
> > > a Sundowner on the market pretty soon.
> >
> > Wow, you sound pretty enthusiastic!
>
> Ahhhhh YEAH! It really can't be describe in the text of words and
> videos and like I pretty much said I hope the video captures the art
> of soaring, just doesn't give that physical sensation that powered
> flight misses. And being in tune with what the air is doing also is
> my kind of flying, sorta like precision of instrument flying but the
> instrument is your rear end instead of the gauges. Though, I did
> enjoy that VSI going up faster then a good climb rate of my
> Sundowner :-)
I know precisely what you mean! I've tried and failed for a long time to
really capture on video what it's like to be there for real.
> > I own my own glider in a partnership with two other pilots (one of whom
> > never flies it). It is a *very* nice machine, best glide ratio of about
> > 42:1, retractable gear, flaps. It's an ASW-20, which was the reigning
> > 15m racing champion in the late 70s through the 80s. More info and
> > pictures here:
>
> That was another learning thing LOL as you probably could tell in my
> video. Had no clue gear went up in a glider but makes sense for
> purposes of aerodynamics
When you have so little drag, every little bit you can reduce counts for
a lot, and having a big wheel hanging out is a bunch of drag. Basically
every glider built with an eye toward performance in the last 40ish
years has retractable gear.
Think of it this way: at 42:1 L/D and about 750 pounds weight when I'm
in it, my glider is experiencing a mere 18 pounds of drag at the optimal
speed. Add just a few more pounds of drag to that, and you suddenly have
a big decrease in L/D.
> > http://mikeash.com/my_glider.html
>
> WOW, NICE set of wings!!!
Ain't it just? :)
> > Does it pay to buy your own? No doubt it depends on the individual, but
> > in my case, yes, definitely. I flew over 50 hours last year and my share
> > of the glider's costs was only about $700. (That's split about evenly
> > between hangar and insurance, with a little bit extra for the annual and
> > various miscellaneous purchases.) That's way cheaper than it would cost
> > me to rent the club's fiberglass single-seater, it's a *much* nicer
> > aircraft, and I can stay up as long as I want (and am able) on good days
> > instead of having to bring it down for the next guy.
>
> Now you are getting where I am thinking. I like the idea of ownership
> for your very exact reason. Not having to worry about "schedules".
> "Generally speaking" what is the cost of a glider (typical single
> seat, middle of the road glider)
Pretty much you can spend what you want. My 1/3rd share was $12,000, so
it would be $36,000 for the whole thing. That's a fairly typical price
for a glider of that era and type. If you want to go a generation older
or something a bit less high performance, you can get something that's
still pretty nice for probably $20,000 or less.
If you want to get an idea of what's out there, take a look at these
classified listings:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm
If you really want to go cheap, you can get a decent 1-26, an older low
performance metal design that's a ton of fun to fly, just doesn't go
far, for well under $10,000. Those will tolerate being tied out if you
want to keep storage costs low, or you can just keep the trailer in your
garage for free.
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.student/msg/084781ed52ebae2f
>
> Just got through reading your writeup and it kinda parallels ownership
> of a powered airplane. Obviously my cost per hour nowhere near yours,
> but mine would be comparable in savings when compared to renting the
> same amount of flight hours. I am closing in on 1000 hours this
> month of which 960 was in my own plane. You indicated 30 minute
> assembly time. Do you have a trailer to haul the glider for your
> flights. Seemed like at the field I was at, the gliders were already
> fully assembled.
Yep, glider lives in a trailer and gets assembled in the morning before
I fly. Trailer live at the airport, so I don't have to haul it around
unless I want to fly at a different airport. (Or I fail to make it home
and land out somewhere.) The club's gliders are mostly kept assembled,
although our fiberglass single-seater is assembled on demand as well.
I'd like to keep mine assembled if I could, but it would not fit in any
of my airport's hangars, and it would be extremely expensive even if it
did. Fiberglass gliders don't like being tied down outside long-term, so
it stays in its trailer. Having to assemble and disassemble each day is
not nearly as terrible as you might think, though. 30 minutes is about
average, with about 5 of those minutes requiring a second helper (if
it's windy, I can do it by myself if it's calm), and the rest being done
alone.
> > Glider pilots who buy their own glider almost always buy a
> > single-seater. Lots of newcomers think about buying two-seaters so they
> > can take passengers, but for most people that doesn't end up being
> > worthwhile. For me, I can give rides in club equipment when it comes up,
> > and I end up doing most of my flying alone.
>
> Very productive information as what you say above were my exact
> thoughts. Do I need to be current in powered planes to carry
> passengers in a glider though should that rare oppurtunity come up? I
> was reading in the club meeting minutes online in order to carry
> passengers, they needed to be "current" with a PPL license.
They probably meant a PPL-G. I think the FAA defines passenger-carrying
currency in terms of (forgive my probable misuse of terminology here)
category and class. To carry a passenger in a glider, you need at least
three takeoffs and landings within the past 90 days *in a glider*. You
definitely don't need to be current in powered planes, I don't even have
my ASEL PPL and I do give rides from time to time.
> > Hard-core soaring isn't
> > something that typical people really get into. 30-45 minutes of tight
> > circling is about all most people can handle their first time, but I
> > want to fly for hours at a time. The single-seater is cheaper, easier to
> > assemble, nicer to fly, and performs better, so it works out well to
> > have that around for myself, and use the club's resources for guests.
>
> To be honest, when the hour was up, I was ready to come down but that
> also would reflect my power flying limits as well. I felt though
> after being in the glider from all the new information being taken in
> that it felt twice as long trying to soak in all the new
> information..
I've found that my thirst for flight time has grown over the years. When
I first started out, flying for 30 minutes was a major accomplishment.
Then an hour was a major accomplishment. Now, 3 hours seems like no big
deal, and I won't start making a fuss until 5 or so.
> > Once every two years, just like power. It's also tradition (but not
> > required by the FAA) to fly with an instructor first thing each season
> > just to make sure that you haven't forgotten how to fly, especially if
> > you haven't been very active over the winter as sometimes happens.
>
> Duh, yeah every two years, not sure what I was thinking LOL According
> to the club website, it's almost a 12 month season for gliding down
> here so I may have a more extended season..
Note that unlike the currency requirements, flight reviews only have to
be done once every two years and they count for everything you're rated
in. So you can do a glider flight review and that'll take care of your
ASEL flight review requirement as well. And the checkride for your
glider rating will count as a flight review for your ASEL rating as
well, which could be convenient if the timing works out well.
Given how far south you are, I imagine they'd fly year-round, although
the lift may not be the greatest in the winter months. We usually fly
year-round here as well (although somewhat less often in
December-February), it's just that this winter had unusually harsh
weather for us. It's a bit tense to operate a glider with a 60ft
wingspan off a 75ft wide runway when there are 3+ft snow banks lining
the entire thing.
> > It definitely takes work and practice. I hadn't flown for over 3 months
> > over the winter this year, and during my first flight this spring my
> > turn coordination absolutely stank. I'm better now....
>
> Same in power flying currency, currency and currency builds
> proficiency.
>
> I haven't really researched the glider add on, all of this is new. I
> take it no written needed since I have a PPL or will I need to take a
> written test? Also is the rating add on given by a club instructor
> that notifies the FAA or does the FAA have a DE come out when it comes
> to checkride?
You wouldn't need to take a written as a transition from an airplane
PPL. (I'd have to take a written if I ever went the other way, though...
so unfair.) The checkride is done with a DE, just as if you were a new
pilot, although the DE will probably go easier on you when it comes to
asking you about airspace and other questions which he can fairly
reasonably assume you already know due to your PPL. If you think you'd
want to do this for real, ask the instructors at the club what people
usually do for their checkrides. Hopefully there will be a local DE who
is known to the club who can come out and give you the checkride in a
familiar environment.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon