Checkride scenario #2: b1rds in the pattern..

[C Gattman]

One of the most naturally-talented pilots I've ever flown with did a
CFI checkride recently and encountered a flock of birds in his
flightpath on final.

Since he was several knots above stall speed, he flattened his
approach, bled off a few knots--still above Vso--added a notch of
flaps and hit his target. But, in the process, the examiner put hands
on the controls which resulted in an automatic pink slip. (Candidate
retested and performed the maneuver easily, completing the retest in
minutes.)

The preferred solution according to the examiner was--quite literally--
to fly right through the birds and accept the inevitable strike.

What would -you- do?

Chris
CFI

[Mark Hansen]

Post by C Gattman
One of the most naturally-talented pilots I've ever flown with did a
CFI checkride recently and encountered a flock of birds in his
flightpath on final.
Since he was several knots above stall speed, he flattened his
approach, bled off a few knots--still above Vso--added a notch of
flaps and hit his target. But, in the process, the examiner put hands
on the controls which resulted in an automatic pink slip. (Candidate
retested and performed the maneuver easily, completing the retest in
minutes.)
The preferred solution according to the examiner was--quite literally--
to fly right through the birds and accept the inevitable strike.
What would -you- do?

I would get another examiner. Seriously.

I have a lot of tools available to me at that point. Trading some
extra airspeed for altitude seems preferable to a potentially
deadly bird strike.

Good Grief!

Post by C Gattman
Chris
CFI

[C Gattman]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by C Gattman
One of the most naturally-talented pilots I've ever flown with did a
CFI checkride recently and encountered a flock of birds in his
flightpath on final.
Since he was several knots above stall speed, he flattened his
approach, bled off a few knots--still above Vso--added a notch of
flaps and hit his target.  But, in the process, the examiner put hands
on the controls which resulted in an automatic pink slip.  (Candidate
retested and performed the maneuver easily, completing the retest in
minutes.)
The preferred solution according to the examiner was--quite literally--
to fly right through the birds and accept the inevitable strike.
What would -you- do?

I would get another examiner. Seriously.

LOL! That's what he did. I forgot to mention that adding a notch of
power to carry him over the flock is probably a good idea. I don't
know if he did or not, but, having flown with the guy I'd certainly
give him the benefit of the doubt. He said if he'd have lost anymore
airspeed he would have pushed in full power and gone around.

-c

[Peter Dohm]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by C Gattman
One of the most naturally-talented pilots I've ever flown with did a
CFI checkride recently and encountered a flock of birds in his
flightpath on final.
Since he was several knots above stall speed, he flattened his
approach, bled off a few knots--still above Vso--added a notch of
flaps and hit his target. But, in the process, the examiner put hands
on the controls which resulted in an automatic pink slip. (Candidate
retested and performed the maneuver easily, completing the retest in
minutes.)
The preferred solution according to the examiner was--quite literally--
to fly right through the birds and accept the inevitable strike.
What would -you- do?

I would get another examiner. Seriously.

LOL! That's what he did. I forgot to mention that adding a notch of
power to carry him over the flock is probably a good idea. I don't
know if he did or not, but, having flown with the guy I'd certainly
give him the benefit of the doubt. He said if he'd have lost anymore
airspeed he would have pushed in full power and gone around.

-c

Good choice.

I really try not to get into these discussions, as I am a fromet student and
not a current pilot. But, clearly, that examiner was a complete putz!

Peter

[Mike Ash]

In article

Post by C Gattman
One of the most naturally-talented pilots I've ever flown with did a
CFI checkride recently and encountered a flock of birds in his
flightpath on final.
Since he was several knots above stall speed, he flattened his
approach, bled off a few knots--still above Vso--added a notch of
flaps and hit his target. But, in the process, the examiner put hands
on the controls which resulted in an automatic pink slip. (Candidate
retested and performed the maneuver easily, completing the retest in
minutes.)
The preferred solution according to the examiner was--quite literally--
to fly right through the birds and accept the inevitable strike.
What would -you- do?

If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath. Forget any
notion of a precision landing until the immediate situation is dealt
with, but ensure I still have enough energy afterwards to at least reach
the runway.

Since he probably had one of those nifty spinning things up front, I'd
say push the throttle in and go around.

The solution that you said the examiner would prefer is, simply put,
insane. (I use this long and unwieldy phrasing just to account for the
possibility that there *might* be some miscommunication going on. I'm
not accusing you of such, but I also don't want to accuse an FAA
examiner of being insane for something I haven't heard him say myself.)
Planes fly really fast. A bird going that fast could kill you right
dead. Even if it doesn't (and odds are it won't) it's going to mess with
your plane something fierce, costing lots of money at and increasing the
probability that something else will kill you dead.

The only reason to accept a birdstrike is if it can't be safely avoided.
If you maneuver to miss the birds and this causes you to hit a tree
instead, well, that was a bad tradeoff. But this does not sound like one
of those cases. One of the fundamental ideas in flying is to avoid
running into stuff. "Birds" come well below more significant stuff to
avoid running into like "the ground", but it's still something to be
avoided. If you can avoid the birds and still avoid the ground, other
aircraft, people, etc., then you ought to do it.

[Morgans]

Post by Mike Ash
If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath.

From what I have read, going under is a bad idea, if there is any other
option available. Better off to aim at them, and hope they see you, get
scared, and take evasive action. Birds always tuck wings in and dive to get
away from something while in flight. They can't climb quickly, so they
don't.

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Morgans

Post by Mike Ash
If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath.

From what I have read, going under is a bad idea, if there is any other
option available. Better off to aim at them, and hope they see you, get
scared, and take evasive action. Birds always tuck wings in and dive to get
away from something while in flight. They can't climb quickly, so they
don't.

You can't always go over. That's a judgment call that must be made
on a case by case basis. Perhaps you're imagining the birds are
always going to be at your altitude?

[Morgans]

Post by Mark Hansen
You can't always go over. That's a judgment call that must be made
on a case by case basis. Perhaps you're imagining the birds are
always going to be at your altitude?

True. That is why I said "If there is any other option". One that I have
not heard yet, is to try and turn to go behind their flight path, or if it
is much less turning involved, cut in front of them. I realize that many
times, the time you have from seeing them to the time until you hit them is
very short. There often is just not enough time to do much of anything.
Then, it is down to reacting on instinct, as you say on a case by case
basis.

[Mike Ash]

Post by Morgans

Post by Mark Hansen
You can't always go over. That's a judgment call that must be made
on a case by case basis. Perhaps you're imagining the birds are
always going to be at your altitude?

True. That is why I said "If there is any other option". One that I have
not heard yet, is to try and turn to go behind their flight path, or if it
is much less turning involved, cut in front of them. I realize that many
times, the time you have from seeing them to the time until you hit them is
very short. There often is just not enough time to do much of anything.
Then, it is down to reacting on instinct, as you say on a case by case
basis.

In a glider, the options for "up" are limited. You're right that going
below is a bad idea, but if the choice is below or through, I'd think
that below would be the better of the two. "Up" would only be a choice
for me if the top of the flock were around my altitude, or less.

Going around them to the side was not something I thought of. Glider
finals are usually really short and energy is obviously limited so this
might not work out, but if it were possible then it would obviously be
an excellent choice.

In any case, it seems that everybody agrees that taking birds to the
face when there is any kind of alternative is a bad idea. :)

[Peter Dohm]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Morgans

Post by Mike Ash
If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath.

From what I have read, going under is a bad idea, if there is any other
option available. Better off to aim at them, and hope they see you, get
scared, and take evasive action. Birds always tuck wings in and dive to get
away from something while in flight. They can't climb quickly, so they
don't.

You can't always go over. That's a judgment call that must be made
on a case by case basis. Perhaps you're imagining the birds are
always going to be at your altitude?

However, in the O.P.'s original scenario, the birds were at the lower
altitude,
the checkride applicant reduced his descent angle and transited above them,
and the examiner subsequently expressed dissagreement with the decision.

Personally, I agree with Jim and the applicant.

BTW, birds certainly do fold their wings and drop--right through your flight
path--and they scared the s--t out of me a few times on cross countries!

Peter

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 9 May 2009 17:59:21 -0400, "Peter Dohm"

Post by Peter Dohm

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Morgans

Post by Mike Ash
If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath.

From what I have read, going under is a bad idea, if there is any other
option available. Better off to aim at them, and hope they see you, get
scared, and take evasive action. Birds always tuck wings in and dive to get
away from something while in flight. They can't climb quickly, so they
don't.

You can't always go over. That's a judgment call that must be made
on a case by case basis. Perhaps you're imagining the birds are
always going to be at your altitude?

However, in the O.P.'s original scenario, the birds were at the lower
altitude,
the checkride applicant reduced his descent angle and transited above them,
and the examiner subsequently expressed dissagreement with the decision.
Personally, I agree with Jim and the applicant.
BTW, birds certainly do fold their wings and drop--right through your flight
path--and they scared the s--t out of me a few times on cross countries!

The only thing you know about birds is they are unpredictable.

I've hit three, although no damage. Two, a seagull and a Duck pulled
up in front of me. Ducks and Seagulls in particular are brainless.
the third (a large colorful something...bout pigeon size) came up out
of the grass beside the runway as The Cherokee was lifting off. It was
crossing right in front of us along with a lot of other birds of the
same size. It went through the prop and into the engine compartment
completely blocking the airflow between the two port cylinders. By
the time I made it around the pattern it was about ready to be
served. The engine was fine.

Post by Peter Dohm
Peter

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Morgans

Post by Mike Ash
If the flock is substantially below me, spoilers in and fly over it. If
it's substantially above, spoilers in and tuck underneath.

From what I have read, going under is a bad idea, if there is any other
option available.  Better off to aim at them, and hope they see you, get
scared, and take evasive action.  Birds always tuck wings in and dive to get
away from something while in flight.  They can't climb quickly, so they
don't.
--
Jim in NC

I remember AJ Foyt once, when asked how he managed to avoid a crash
right ahead of his car at 230MPH saying,
" I aim for the center of the crash. By the time I get there they are
out of the way.
:-)
I think you're right about the birds. I've heard the same thing. They
TEND to dive out of danger as it's the quickest route. They use
gravity rather than oppose it by climbing..............but that being
said, it's always a crap shoot.
The simple truth is that with most bird strikes, you get a nano-second
to identify and avoid and in many cases, especially if descending into
ground visual cues behind them, not even that much warning.
Dudley Henriques

[BeechSundowner]

Post by C Gattman
What would -you- do?
Chris
CFI

I would have climbed. You don't say if this was a spot landing or a
short runway. If it was spot or short runway, go around. I don't
think one gets a failure for go-arounds especially for a flock of
birds?

If it was some type landing that allowed full use of the runway, I
would have flown ABOVE the flock of birds and landed long providing of
course there was enough landing distance

I was told that if there was ever a conflict of airspace between me
and a bird that a birds natural defense mechanism is to dive to avoid
a collision, so always climb to avoid sharing the same airspace. I
have seen this type of reaction from birds at my airport so I think
there is merit to it.