Starting a complex retractable rating

[Euan Kilgour]

I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!

Once airborne it handles pretty much like the Archers I have flown
previously with the exception being it has quite a heavy nose. I was
told it glides like a brick with wings and they weren't kidding. At
best glide of 91 knots it was coming down at 900 fpm and with the gear
down 1400fpm! My eyes were on stalks I can tell you.

I found the best way to land it was round out and flare with a touch
of power on because the shorter wing span (than an Archer) means below
about 50 knots it will simply stop flying and down you come, hard. I
didn't detect any ground effect float at all. And the heavy nose
likes to slam itself down like a F14 on a carrier deck so you need to
cushion that as well.

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Arrow and am looking forward
to more flights. The feeling of flying a complex retractable was
something I did not expect. It was like I had finally arrived as a
pilot because I was not flying a "training" aircraft any more.

[Mark Hansen]

On 04/27/09 14:01, Euan Kilgour wrote:

You don't say where you are, but in the US, there is no retractable
rating - there is a complex endorsement, but I expect this is what
you meant :-)

I just went through the transition to a Cessna 182 RG (complex), so...

Post by Euan Kilgour
I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!

I belong to a flying club, and the chief pilot is hot for checklists
and structure in flying (and I'm happy he is...). However, there's
still a lot to memorize - which is why it requires the endorsement.

Post by Euan Kilgour
Once airborne it handles pretty much like the Archers I have flown
previously with the exception being it has quite a heavy nose. I was
told it glides like a brick with wings and they weren't kidding. At
best glide of 91 knots it was coming down at 900 fpm and with the gear
down 1400fpm! My eyes were on stalks I can tell you.

I've heard that about the Archers. I flew one once, but don't recall.
Things aren't quite that bad in the 182RG. Having the gear down doesn't
change the drag all that much (some, yes, but not a lot in my experience).

However, go to full flaps, and she drops like a rock! :-)

Post by Euan Kilgour
I found the best way to land it was round out and flare with a touch
of power on because the shorter wing span (than an Archer) means below
about 50 knots it will simply stop flying and down you come, hard. I
didn't detect any ground effect float at all. And the heavy nose
likes to slam itself down like a F14 on a carrier deck so you need to
cushion that as well.

Well, you may want to check with your instructor on that. I'm not an
instructor, but I was taught that you should be able to do the round
out and flare with idle power. If you're needing to keep some power
through the round out and flare, your approach speed may be too low.

Post by Euan Kilgour
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Arrow and am looking forward
to more flights. The feeling of flying a complex retractable was
something I did not expect. It was like I had finally arrived as a
pilot because I was not flying a "training" aircraft any more.

Well, I got over the 'coolness' of it pretty quickly. It's quite a
bit more expensive to fly than the club's 172 planes, but I like
it better just because of the additional space in the cabin. I'm
pretty big (and so is my wife - but don't tell her) and the 172 is
pretty cramped. Especially now that we've seen what the 182's cabin
is like.

I also like that it will be much easier to get over the Sierra (we
live in the Sacramento area, so we need to transit the Sierra to
go just about anywhere East).

The only thing is that I'll have to start thinking about oxygen now.
This weekend my wife and I took the plane to 11,500' - which was the
first time either of us had been that high in a ASEL. It was fun.

Best of luck in your transition training. I hope things go well for
you.

[Jim Logajan]

Post by Mark Hansen
You don't say where you are, but in the US, there is no retractable
rating - there is a complex endorsement, but I expect this is what
you meant :-)

He appears to be posting from New Zealand.

[Euan Kilgour]

Post by Jim Logajan

Post by Mark Hansen
You don't say where you are, but in the US, there is no retractable
rating - there is a complex endorsement, but I expect this is what
you meant :-)

He appears to be posting from New Zealand.

That's correct Jim. There is no complex endorsement equivalent in NZ,
in effect I am getting a type rating in the Pa28-200R which just
happens to be a complex retractable.

[Dan Luke]

Post by Euan Kilgour
I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!

You will get used to it. Flying a retract is fun.

Don't forget the GUMP check--aluminum scraping on concrete is an ugly
sound...or so I'm told.

[Mike Ash]

Post by Dan Luke

Post by Euan Kilgour
I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!

You will get used to it. Flying a retract is fun.
Don't forget the GUMP check--aluminum scraping on concrete is an ugly
sound...or so I'm told.

For sure. I'm a firm believer in the theory that there are two kinds of
pilots, those who have made gear-up landings and those who will. I'm
still in the "will" category myself, but I've already seen three gear-up
landings in my three years flying (two of them made by highly
experienced, careful pilots... the third made by somebody I didn't
know). Seems to be a common mistake, and tremendously expensive.

[Euan Kilgour]

I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow.  I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over.  Phew there are a lot of checks!  By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set.  All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!

You will get used to it.  Flying a retract is fun.
Don't forget the GUMP check--aluminum scraping on concrete is an ugly
sound...or so I'm told.

I hear you Dan, right now I check for 3 greens about 4 times once its
down. I guess I am paranoid about having to explain to the head
instructor why I did a wheels up landing in his plane.

[BT]

Euan... congratulations on continuing to grow your piloting experience and
proficiency.
The Piper Arrow is one of many small "complex" aircraft to fulfill that
"next step".

The Complex "endorsement" is not a "rating" (in the US). It is an
endorsement provided by a qualified instructor that the pilot has achieved a
proficiency and knowledge level in understanding the new aircraft systems of
controllable propeller and retractable gear and can handle these systems
while still flying and controlling the aircraft.

The Arrow makes a fine trainer for the adding the new knowledge and skills
to your abilities.

BT

Post by Euan Kilgour
I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!
Once airborne it handles pretty much like the Archers I have flown
previously with the exception being it has quite a heavy nose. I was
told it glides like a brick with wings and they weren't kidding. At
best glide of 91 knots it was coming down at 900 fpm and with the gear
down 1400fpm! My eyes were on stalks I can tell you.
I found the best way to land it was round out and flare with a touch
of power on because the shorter wing span (than an Archer) means below
about 50 knots it will simply stop flying and down you come, hard. I
didn't detect any ground effect float at all. And the heavy nose
likes to slam itself down like a F14 on a carrier deck so you need to
cushion that as well.
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Arrow and am looking forward
to more flights. The feeling of flying a complex retractable was
something I did not expect. It was like I had finally arrived as a
pilot because I was not flying a "training" aircraft any more.

[C Gattman]

I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow.  I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over.  Phew there are a lot of checks!  By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set.  

After a dozen hours or so in the Arrow it'll feel weird getting back
into a non-complex airplane. Everybody always preaches some variation
of "GUMPS" which is important but it takes longer to say the
individual items than to actually do them. The last time I flew an
Arrow was for my CFI checkride, and I used the full former GUMPS
checklist approaching the field and on downwind. On final, I use:

"Short final: Three green, mixture rich, prop forward, fuel pump on"
and then
"Field is made. Three green, prop forward."

Learn them like song lyrics and you won't forget, but you also have to
make sure you perform check items.

Cheers and happy flying!

Chris Gattman
CFI Troutdale, OR

[John Godwin]

Post by C Gattman
"Short final: Three green, mixture rich, prop forward, fuel pump
on" and then
"Field is made. Three green, prop forward."

Do "mixture rich" at a high altitude airport, you've got a problem.

--

[Clark]

Post by John Godwin

Post by C Gattman
"Short final: Three green, mixture rich, prop forward, fuel pump
on" and then
"Field is made. Three green, prop forward."

Do "mixture rich" at a high altitude airport, you've got a problem.

Not if it's a turbo...

[C Gattman]

Post by John Godwin

Post by C Gattman
"Short final: Three green, mixture rich, prop forward, fuel pump
on" and then
"Field is made. Three green, prop forward."

Do "mixture rich" at a high altitude airport, you've got a problem.

Yes, the mixture should be enriched only as appropriate to field
conditions in case you need full power to go around. At 1200-1500 rpm
on final, though, you're practically at idle. It would be an odd
scenario in which you had to lean the mixture on descent.

[Robert M. Gary]

Once you've mastered the Arrow you'll be ready to step up to the
Mooney. They're really the same airplane with the Mooney just having a
faster wing. Its more slipery and quites flying sooner as a result

-Robert

Post by Euan Kilgour
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Arrow and am looking forward
to more flights.  The feeling of flying a complex retractable was
something I did not expect.  It was like I had finally arrived as a
pilot because I was not flying a "training" aircraft any more.

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Robert M. Gary
Once you've mastered the Arrow you'll be ready to step up to the
Mooney. They're really the same airplane with the Mooney just having a
faster wing. Its more slipery and quites flying sooner as a result
-Robert

Of course, you have to be built for the Mooney (read: long legs
and narrow shoulders) :-)

... perhaps my legs are just too short and my shoulders are too
broad :-\

[Robert M. Gary]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Robert M. Gary
Once you've mastered the Arrow you'll be ready to step up to the
Mooney. They're really the same airplane with the Mooney just having a
faster wing. Its more slipery and quites flying sooner as a result
-Robert

Of course, you have to be built for the Mooney (read: long legs
and narrow shoulders) :-)
... perhaps my legs are just too short and my shoulders are too
broad :-\

Width is the same as the Arrow (I've measured it). Length is pretty
close too. The Arrow got longer in '71 and the Mooney got longer with
the F model around the same time. But yes, for the average legged
pilot the rudder extensions are probably helpful.

-Robert

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Robert M. Gary

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Robert M. Gary
Once you've mastered the Arrow you'll be ready to step up to the
Mooney. They're really the same airplane with the Mooney just having a
faster wing. Its more slipery and quites flying sooner as a result
-Robert

Of course, you have to be built for the Mooney (read: long legs
and narrow shoulders) :-)
... perhaps my legs are just too short and my shoulders are too
broad :-\

Width is the same as the Arrow (I've measured it). Length is pretty
close too. The Arrow got longer in '71 and the Mooney got longer with
the F model around the same time. But yes, for the average legged
pilot the rudder extensions are probably helpful.
-Robert

Hmmm, I don't remember having any problems in the Arrow. When I
sat in the Mooney (I think it was an M20F) I remember I had to
lean to the right - I wasn't able to sit up straight.

Plus I had a hard time reaching the rudder pedals :-)

I didn't know they made extensions...

Thanks,

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:01:08 -0700 (PDT), Euan Kilgour

Post by Euan Kilgour
I've just had my first flight in a Piper Arrow. I thought I only got
slightly behind the plane once but the instructor never had to take
over. Phew there are a lot of checks! By the time I got my eyes
outside for more than just a quick glance we were at 400 AGL with the
gear up and climb power set. All that and making sure the aircraft is
above best glide speed but below the gear limiting speed until its up
and locked... talk about keeping yourself busy!
Once airborne it handles pretty much like the Archers I have flown
previously with the exception being it has quite a heavy nose. I was

Spend some time flying a Cherokee 180 with the Hershey bar wing. It's
just like flying an Arrow with the gear down.

Post by Euan Kilgour
told it glides like a brick with wings and they weren't kidding. At
best glide of 91 knots it was coming down at 900 fpm and with the gear
down 1400fpm! My eyes were on stalks I can tell you.

It's just a bit different and not what you are used to. A couple of
hours and it'll seem normal

Post by Euan Kilgour
I found the best way to land it was round out and flare with a touch
of power on because the shorter wing span (than an Archer) means below
about 50 knots it will simply stop flying and down you come, hard. I
didn't detect any ground effect float at all. And the heavy nose
likes to slam itself down like a F14 on a carrier deck so you need to
cushion that as well.

Just a bit more back pressure on the yoke to hold the nose off when
the mains are on. Just hold it off as long as possible and it should
settle nicely.
You learn to make power off landings just a bit faster so you have
enough energy to flare.
In a Bonanza power off landings use considerably more runway than
power on.

Post by Euan Kilgour
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Arrow and am looking forward

it's a nice, docile aircraft in which to make the transition.

Post by Euan Kilgour
to more flights. The feeling of flying a complex retractable was
something I did not expect. It was like I had finally arrived as a
pilot because I was not flying a "training" aircraft any more.

Wait until you stick 300 HP (or more) up front <:-))

One thing to look forward to is being lured into not putting the gear
down. We all start out paranoid and many end up seeing what we expect
to see.

I was getting close to being signed off so we went out to work on "the
finer aspects" of HP/complex/retract. Having flown all the regualr
maneuvers and some hood work we headed back to the airport.
On downwind I checked "the light and pointer". The Deb only has two
lights, one red and one green while the nose gear is a mechanical
pointer. I put the gear switch down and identified " green and pointer
down". Again on base I identified "green and pointer down" but noted I
had to really come back on the power to slow enough to get the flap
setting. Again on final I had "green and pointer down", but the speed
was still high so I backed off on the power even more and...had the
gear warning horn go off.

I looked at the instructor and said, "you pulled the breaker, didn't
you", to which he replied, "and you identified green and pointer down
THREE TIMES even though they were red and pointer up".

We sometimes see what we expect to see regardless of what is there.

Congratulations and good luck,