DPE Commercial Checkride Question

[Cecil Chapman]

I recently got an email from a Commercial student congratulating me on
recently getting my Commercial ticket and then asking me if, of the
Commercial maneuvers listed, if there are any specific maneuvers that MUST
be part of every Commercial Checkride. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell
him that the examiner had the latitude to request from any or all of the
Commercial maneuvers, but I told him that I really didn't know for sure if
there were any one or two of the Commercial maneuvers that HAD to be part of
the Commercial checkride and that he might check the DPE 'handbook' online
and see if he could find it himself (by the way, this is a document that I
think I'll get in-print at my local flight store - it would seem a
'must-have' for any CFI).

So, ARE there any of the Commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, Lazy 8's, etc...)
that MUST be part of the test?
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Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Brad Zeigler]

Post by Cecil Chapman
I recently got an email from a Commercial student congratulating me on
recently getting my Commercial ticket and then asking me if, of the
Commercial maneuvers listed, if there are any specific maneuvers that MUST
be part of every Commercial Checkride. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell
him that the examiner had the latitude to request from any or all of the
Commercial maneuvers, but I told him that I really didn't know for sure if
there were any one or two of the Commercial maneuvers that HAD to be part
of the Commercial checkride and that he might check the DPE 'handbook'
online and see if he could find it himself (by the way, this is a document
that I think I'll get in-print at my local flight store - it would seem a
'must-have' for any CFI).
So, ARE there any of the Commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, Lazy 8's,
etc...) that MUST be part of the test?

suggest to him that he READ the PTS.

[Cecil Chapman]

Post by Brad Zeigler
suggest to him that he READ the PTS.

Always necessary, but the PTS doesn't say there is one Commercial Maneuver
that must be present in EVERY Commercial Checkride - at least I didn't see
any such reference.
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Brad Zeigler]

Post by Cecil Chapman

Post by Brad Zeigler
suggest to him that he READ the PTS.

Always necessary, but the PTS doesn't say there is one Commercial Maneuver
that must be present in EVERY Commercial Checkride - at least I didn't see
any such reference.

This literally took me less than 30 seconds to find in the PTS:

The FAA requires that all commercial pilot practical tests be conducted
in accordance with the appropriate commercial practical test standards
and the policies set forth in the INTRODUCTION. Applicants shall be
evaluated in ALL TASKs included in each AREA OF OPERATION of
the appropriate practical test standard, unless otherwise noted.

This is from:

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-12B.pdf

On page 24 there is a table of the tasks. Really Cecil, if you're going to
buy all these books and be a flight instructor, you've got to be familiar
with them!

[Cecil Chapman]

Post by Brad Zeigler
On page 24 there is a table of the tasks. Really Cecil, if you're going to
buy all these books and be a flight instructor, you've got to be familiar
with them!

I'll bet it did.....

Yeah, let's look at page 24:

ADDITIONAL RATING TASK TABLE

Airplane Single-Engine Land

Addition of an Airplane Single-Engine Land Rating

to an EXISTING Commercial Pilot Certificate

Does the above have ANYTHING TO DO with what I asked? No.

The above reference and accompanying table you refer to isn't even pertinent
to my question in ANY respect (take special note to this line and get your
money refunded from your speed-reading course): "Addition of an Airplane
Single-Engine Land Rating to an existing Commercial Pilot Certificate")
?hunh??? ... maybe you should have taken longer than 30 seconds?

Your reply makes NO sense and your final line is almost badgering me for a
reply (which unfortunately you seem to have got from me - well at least
others have got a good example of the importance of reading comprehension
<g>).

"Brad Zeigler" <====== By the way,,, who is this? Did I just feed a
troll? If so,,, apologies to everyone I just wasn't sure...
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Brad Zeigler]

Alright- Let me try again. I left some context out of my previous response.
Your question was whether specific maneuvers must be on a commercial
checkride. No, you do not have to do lazy 8's chandelles, etc. on a
multi-engine checkride, either initial or additional. If your question is
specific to C-ASEL, then I think page 52 answers your question:

V. AREA OF OPERATION: PERFORMANCE MANEUVERS
NOTE: The examiner shall at least select either TASK A or B, and either
C or D.

So the examiner can choose either steep turns or steep spiral and chandelles
or lazy eights.

Gosh, I'm sorry I pissed you off. Perhaps my lack of "winks" and "grins"
masked my feeble attempt at humor. By the way, Kershner's FI manual is a
good add to your collection:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/081380633X/qid=1128810485/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1900998-7001667?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Post by Cecil Chapman
"Brad Zeigler" <====== By the way,,, who is this? Did I just feed a
troll? If so,,, apologies to everyone I just wasn't sure...

Not hardly. Are you?

[Cecil Chapman]

Post by Brad Zeigler
Gosh, I'm sorry I pissed you off. Perhaps my lack of "winks" and "grins"
masked my feeble attempt at humor. By the way, Kershner's FI manual is a

Not to worry.... I've done that once or twice myself (that is I forgot to
put in the 'emoticons' where I needed to in my text) and suddenly had
someone mad at me when I was just kidding. It's easy to forget how much we
sometimes depend on facial expression to transmit meaning/context. ;0)

Post by Brad Zeigler

Post by Cecil Chapman
Did I just feed a
troll? If so,,, apologies to everyone I just wasn't sure...

Not hardly. Are you?

Only if I manage to catch my wife's flu (the poor thing started coming down
with it ((fast)) yesterday morning - was running a fever by early
afternoon.... WOW! :0< ) - then my manner will seem troll-like <grin>.
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Peter Clark]

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:14:19 GMT, "Cecil Chapman"

Post by Cecil Chapman

Post by Brad Zeigler
suggest to him that he READ the PTS.

Always necessary, but the PTS doesn't say there is one Commercial Maneuver
that must be present in EVERY Commercial Checkride - at least I didn't see
any such reference.

VI. AREA OF OPERATION: GROUND REFERENCE MANUVER

TASK: EIGHTS ON PYLONS (ASEL and ASES)

Unlike section 5, there is no option (steep turns or steep spiral,
chandelles or lazy eights). Unless I'm reading the PTS wrong, seems
to me that the eight on pylon is the only maneuver which would
therefore be required in any checkride.

[Jim Burns]

Oh Great CFI Student.... :)) A common student error when prepareing for a
checkride is that they fail to read and understand the PTS. The answers can
be found in the PTS, remember?

Which TASKS are required? The examiner often has the option of choosing one
or more maneuvers within a specified task.

Jim

[Cecil Chapman]

Post by Jim Burns
Oh Great CFI Student.... :))

:)

I guess the gist of his question was that in the DPE handbook (other than
the Complex demonstrations which are a must) - is there one specific
Commercial Maneuver that must ALWAYS be present in every Commercial
Checkride regardless of any others? So far, I've got some interesting email
on this post,, for example; one of the those that emailed me in response to
this post said that the eights-on-pylons and the power-off 180 degree
landing must be performed in every Commercial Checkride. Yet I don't seem
to be able to find such a requirement of DPE's - perhaps because there isn't
one?

Others may be right, maybe the individual is naively expecting a one 'ride'
for all - which of course will lead to much excitement on his part during
checkride day - but then again, maybe what elicited the question was him
hearing something like I just mentioned.

I'm going to email back and get more info... :)
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
n has the option of choosing one

Post by Jim Burns
or more maneuvers within a specified task.
Jim

[Jim Burns]

For an initial ASEL Commercial certificate
Power off 180 degree Accuracy Approach and Landing is required
Eights on Pylons is required
other maneuvers are chosen by the DE within the requirements of the TASK
Emergency Approach and Landing is also required

Jim

[Cecil Chapman]

Perfect! Thanks as always, Jim! :0)
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[NW_PILOT]

Post by Cecil Chapman
I recently got an email from a Commercial student congratulating me on
recently getting my Commercial ticket and then asking me if, of the
Commercial maneuvers listed, if there are any specific maneuvers that MUST
be part of every Commercial Checkride. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell
him that the examiner had the latitude to request from any or all of the
Commercial maneuvers, but I told him that I really didn't know for sure if
there were any one or two of the Commercial maneuvers that HAD to be part of
the Commercial checkride and that he might check the DPE 'handbook' online
and see if he could find it himself (by the way, this is a document that I
think I'll get in-print at my local flight store - it would seem a
'must-have' for any CFI).
So, ARE there any of the Commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, Lazy 8's, etc...)
that MUST be part of the test?
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!
Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA
Student - C.F.I.
Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Cecil, My understanding is its in the PTS but the DPE can ask you to do
anything for which certificate you hold! Like private maneuvers on you
commercial check ride!

[Cecil Chapman]

That's what I assume to be so. Which is why I made sure I was doing well at
ALL the maneuvers before my checkride.
--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Post by NW_PILOT
Cecil, My understanding is its in the PTS but the DPE can ask you to do
anything for which certificate you hold! Like private maneuvers on you
commercial check ride!

[Robert Chambers]

He sounds like he was just looking for a pirep from you about what this
particular DPE wants to see demonstrated. It's common knowledge that a
lot of DPE's have pet peeves and want those things demonstrated to
perfection whereas other manouvers aren't looked at. It's not cheating
to tell him what your particular experience was on the checkride and if
he thinks he can expect a mirror image of your ride then he's being a
bit niaeve.

Congrats on the pass by the way Cecil.

Robert

Post by Cecil Chapman
I recently got an email from a Commercial student congratulating me on
recently getting my Commercial ticket and then asking me if, of the
Commercial maneuvers listed, if there are any specific maneuvers that MUST
be part of every Commercial Checkride. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell
him that the examiner had the latitude to request from any or all of the
Commercial maneuvers, but I told him that I really didn't know for sure if
there were any one or two of the Commercial maneuvers that HAD to be part of
the Commercial checkride and that he might check the DPE 'handbook' online
and see if he could find it himself (by the way, this is a document that I
think I'll get in-print at my local flight store - it would seem a
'must-have' for any CFI).
So, ARE there any of the Commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, Lazy 8's, etc...)
that MUST be part of the test?

[Cecil Chapman]

Post by Robert Chambers
He sounds like he was just looking for a pirep from you about what this
particular DPE wants to see demonstrated. It's common knowledge that a
lot of DPE's have pet peeves and want those things demonstrated to
perfection whereas other manouvers aren't looked at. It's not cheating to
tell him what your particular experience was on the checkride and if he
thinks he can expect a mirror image of your ride then he's being a bit
niaeve.

Perhaps that's it, but the query wasn't about any one specific examiner - so
his query started me wondering if every Commercial Checkride a DPE gives
MUST contain a specific Commercial maneuver (i.e., in addition to the
others that they are free to choose from).

Post by Robert Chambers
Congrats on the pass by the way Cecil.

Many thanks! :-)
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CP-ASEL-IA

Student - C.F.I.

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Post by Robert Chambers

Post by Cecil Chapman
I recently got an email from a Commercial student congratulating me on
recently getting my Commercial ticket and then asking me if, of the
Commercial maneuvers listed, if there are any specific maneuvers that
MUST be part of every Commercial Checkride. My knee-jerk reaction was to
tell him that the examiner had the latitude to request from any or all of
the Commercial maneuvers, but I told him that I really didn't know for
sure if there were any one or two of the Commercial maneuvers that HAD to
be part of the Commercial checkride and that he might check the DPE
'handbook' online and see if he could find it himself (by the way, this
is a document that I think I'll get in-print at my local flight store -
it would seem a 'must-have' for any CFI).
So, ARE there any of the Commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, Lazy 8's,
etc...) that MUST be part of the test?

[Gordon Young]

Cecil,

From my copy of the commercial PTS.

V. AREA OF OPERATION: PERFORMANCE MANEUVERS

Note: The examiner shall at least select either TASK A or B, and either C or
D.

A... steep turns
B... steep spiral
C... chandelles
D... lazy eights

[c***@gmail.com]

What have i got to do with that cecil chapman i am trying to get what requested not a flying cecil He is totally irevelant to me just answer my yes my request please