To go around or not go around? - Video

[A Lieberman]

I was to go with a friend as I had not flown with him since he getting
his PPL

Winds were above his Xwind limits so I told him grab a CFI to
experience what I considered rather mild crosswinds. I told him I
wouldn't be comfortable from the right seat and I am not a CFI but
today was certainly a flyable day. So he called his brother who is a
CFI.

It would be interesting to hear what others would have done on the
first landing.

My "Howard Cosell" in the action commentary is in the video.

[Alt Beer]

Post by A Lieberman
http://youtu.be/qeNNULCL4Mw
I was to go with a friend as I had not flown with him since he getting
his PPL
Winds were above his Xwind limits so I told him grab a CFI to
experience what I considered rather mild crosswinds. I told him I
wouldn't be comfortable from the right seat and I am not a CFI but
today was certainly a flyable day. So he called his brother who is a
CFI.
It would be interesting to hear what others would have done on the
first landing.
My "Howard Cosell" in the action commentary is in the video.

Looks like he is landing flat most of the time or is it just looking that
way on video?

[BeechSundowner]

Post by Alt Beer
Looks like he is landing flat most of the time or is it just looking that
way on video?

He was "marginally flat" as I heard three distinct squeaks on two of
the landings.

I personally like my nose wheel a bit higher off the ground.

[vic20owner]

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Alt Beer
Looks like he is landing flat most of the time or is it just looking that
way on video?

He was "marginally flat" as I heard three distinct squeaks on two of
the landings.
I personally like my nose wheel a bit higher off the ground.

i dunno as a glider pilot i would have just put it down :) Looks like
almost a mile of runway left!

Of course i wouldn't have the option to go around in a glider so my
perspective is a bit off.

[BeechSundowner]

i dunno as a glider pilot i would have just put it down :)  Looks like
almost a mile of runway left!
Of course i wouldn't have the option to go around in a glider so my
perspective is a bit off.

Runway length wasn't a factor, that was for sure! I guess ballooning
for you wouldn't be any different in recovery then a powered plane?
Or could you lose enough airspeed to stall?

[Mike Ash]

In article

Post by BeechSundowner

i dunno as a glider pilot i would have just put it down :)  Looks like
almost a mile of runway left!
Of course i wouldn't have the option to go around in a glider so my
perspective is a bit off.

Funny, I thought the same thing! Sometimes I wonder what it's like to
have the option to go around. My power plane experience was too little
and too long ago to remember that.

Post by BeechSundowner
Runway length wasn't a factor, that was for sure! I guess ballooning
for you wouldn't be any different in recovery then a powered plane?
Or could you lose enough airspeed to stall?

I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

[BeechSundowner]

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider? I
could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate in
my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to you? I
would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your nose to get
back the very little precious airspeed you have?

[Mike Ash]

In article

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider? I
could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,
a fact which I have extremely grateful for on many occasions when
landing in breathtakingly violent turbulence. Landing in rotor can be,
um, interesting.

There are two basic things which could cause a balloon that I can think
of. The first would be a horizontal gust. If you get hit from the front,
you'll go up. The second would be simple overreaction on the controls.
If you flare too aggressively, back up you go.

I wouldn't say that it's common. I sometimes have an over-control
balloon but it's usually just a couple of feet.

Post by BeechSundowner
For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate in
my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to you? I
would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your nose to get
back the very little precious airspeed you have?

Right, you'd want to push the nose down and put the spoilers in. Nose
down will get speed back up and also arrest the climb, and shouldn't
need to be too far down to do this. Spoilers in makes your energy bleed
off *much* slower (in my glider, going from full spoilers to no spoilers
will decrease drag by a factor of 5 or so) and also decreases your stall
speed by a few knots.

Gliders are usually light and responsive and so the pilot should be able
to stop the climb and keep things under control without getting too
high. The "interesting" glider balloons on landing at my airport are
usually students, although nobody is immune.

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Mike Ash
It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,

Well, that's not been my experience - not by a long shot. It's not
so noticeable with heavier aircraft, but when I was flying a very
light ultralight there were times when I would hit a thermal on the
runway (during my roundout/flare) that would pitch the airplane up
as though it were taking off again - that is until you hit the other
side of the lift, then "look out" :-)

Even the training manual speaks of the difference in rising air
currents when flying final over different types of surfaces.

Perhaps gliders are less susceptible to these? I have yet to fly
gliders, so I'm ignorant on that front.

Best Regards,

[Mike Ash]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Mike Ash
It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,

Well, that's not been my experience - not by a long shot. It's not
so noticeable with heavier aircraft, but when I was flying a very
light ultralight there were times when I would hit a thermal on the
runway (during my roundout/flare) that would pitch the airplane up
as though it were taking off again - that is until you hit the other
side of the lift, then "look out" :-)
Even the training manual speaks of the difference in rising air
currents when flying final over different types of surfaces.
Perhaps gliders are less susceptible to these? I have yet to fly
gliders, so I'm ignorant on that front.

Could be, or you've misinterpreted them, or I have. A horizontal gust
will look similar to what you describe, so it may be easy to confuse
them. On the other hand, I think that a glider's substantially higher
wing loading when compared to an ultralight means that it will be less
susceptible to vertical movement so you may well be right. I still
believe that vertical movement drops off greatly when close to the
ground, and have seen it in action many times with non-thermal
turbulence, but that doesn't mean it's gone altogether.

[vic20owner]

Back to the original question, one thing to consider in a situation
like this is that you are practically already on the ground. Trying
to climb out again for a go around after losing so much speed is where
many pilots stall and crash. I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die" and this is a very common scenario ...
sometimes a hard bounce damages the plane (unknown to the pilot) and
the attempt to go around ends horribly. In other cases they cannot
regain speed, forget to retract the flaps, or any number of other
things which contribute to a stall at a dangerous altitude (75-200
feet). The conclusion was that touch and go's (due to the amount of
possibilities for error and lack of time to react) are much higher
risk than a hard landing. This is what I have deduced from the book
anyway.

In any event the book is an interesting read and worth having a look
at.

-tom

[BeechSundowner]

 In other cases they cannot
regain speed, forget to retract the flaps, or any number of other
things which contribute to a stall at a dangerous altitude (75-200
feet).  The conclusion was that touch and go's (due to the amount of
possibilities for error and lack of time to react) are much higher
risk than a hard landing.  

You know I never thought of this before you posted this but you could
be potentially on to something where that old adage says the cure is
sometimes worse then the disease.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), vic20owner

Post by vic20owner
Back to the original question, one thing to consider in a situation
like this is that you are practically already on the ground.

Talk to your instructors about this. Every landing should be planned
with a go-around in mind a one of the likely outcomes. With variable
and gusty winds I had to do 2 go-around's in a row and another pilot
had to do 3. This was in front of a big crowd where we didn't want to
screw up so ego was put aside and the go-around was used.

Post by vic20owner
Trying
to climb out again for a go around after losing so much speed is where
many pilots stall and crash.

Please talk this over with an instructor.

Even a student should be well versed in aborting the landing shown in
the video, but it wasn't a bad landing. OTOH when you are the one
doing the landing they always seem worse then they do to those
watching.
Far more accidents happen on landing than taking off.
Most planes have more than enough power to climb out with full flaps
with the exception of a couple of trainers. That is why students are
taught these maneuvers before they are allowed to solo. The prime
directive is to never commit yourself to the landing until the wheels
are stopped.

There are both the go-around and balked landing. Had the landing been
aborted at the phase in the video it would really have been a balked
landing. The only real difference between the two as I see it is the
go-around is done from a much more comfortable altitude where you have
time to retrim and raise the flaps with less likely hood of breaking
something.

In the case of the video the go-around, or "balked landing" would have
been initiated by going full power. Hold the nose down enough to stay
in ground effect while you accelerate to a safe speed. Most POHs and
instructors will tell you not to raise the flaps until a positive rate
of climb has been established but in some trainers you may have to
accelerate in ground effect while "milking up the flaps".

(ALWAYS go over this procedure, or any procedure talked about on the
news groups with an instructor for any particular plane.) NEVER take
what you read on here as gospel. Use what you read on here as a basis
or information to discuss with your instructor.

However be careful when raising the flaps as if done too low and
airspeed the plane will either settle onto the runway or worse yet,
stall onto the runway.

Those stalling on a go-around or balked landing most likely have
forgotten to keep the nose down, raised the flaps at too low an
airspeed, hadn't yet had the proper training, or just weren't paying
attention.

Take a Cessna 182 or any of the Beech Bonanzas and Debonairs, go full
throttle on a go-around, or balked landing and they will want to
virtually stand on their tails which will lead to a stall at a very
bad altitude. Many of the 182's and My Deb will take about 40# of
pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down to a safe climbing angle
while you retrim and then raise the flaps *slowly*. Going full power
with the flaps down the plane literally leaps into the air and for
those not ready for it the experience can be quite scary. It's also
been fatal for a few without experience in the planes.

A Cessna 150 OTOH is pretty anemic from the power standpoint. Each
aircraft make and model is a different animal with a different
personality. The Cherokee 180 with the old Hershey bar wing probably
being the most docile and forgiving yet with plenty of power for
fairly short field work.

Post by vic20owner
I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die"

I'd like to get a copy and I'd have to read the book to judge ...Who
is the author and publisher?

Post by vic20owner
and this is a very common scenario ...

Crashes even in training are not all that common. I say that having
lost a friend about a week ago and he apparently went down just North
of where I was taking a bi-ennual flight review. He headed North from
the airport, made 3 full turns between 20 and 30 miles from the
airport and headed back which is where they lost him on RADAR around
3:30. No one knew he was missing when I left the airport at 6:30. They
found the plane around 3:30 the next afternoon.

Post by vic20owner
sometimes a hard bounce damages the plane (unknown to the pilot) and
the attempt to go around ends horribly.

This is rare and probably happens with commuter and small commercial
flights into difficult strips the most.

Post by vic20owner
In other cases they cannot
regain speed, forget to retract the flaps

Which is why they couldn't regain the speed, or there was an engine
problem. Both being training issues.

Post by vic20owner
, or any number of other
things which contribute to a stall at a dangerous altitude (75-200
feet). The conclusion was that touch and go's (due to the amount of
possibilities for error and lack of time to react)

That is why these maneuvers are introduced early and repeated often.

Post by vic20owner
are much higher
risk than a hard landing. This is what I have deduced from the book
anyway.
In any event the book is an interesting read and worth having a look
at.
-tom

[Jim Logajan]

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), vic20owner

Post by vic20owner
I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die"

I'd like to get a copy and I'd have to read the book to judge ...Who
is the author and publisher?

Try here:
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250617035&sr=8-2

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Jim Logajan

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), vic20owner

Post by vic20owner
I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die"

I'd like to get a copy and I'd have to read the book to judge ...Who
is the author and publisher?

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250617035&sr=8-2

Thanks.

One caution about books, is interpreting the information. Of course
it's the same here on the news groups. Reading is good, but it's easy
to draw the wrong conclusions and particularly so for the student or
"want to get started flying" individual.

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Jim Logajan

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), vic20owner

Post by vic20owner
I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die"

I'd like to get a copy and I'd have to read the book to judge ...Who
is the author and publisher?

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250617035&sr=8-2

Mna, did you check the price ranges through Amazon? They run from a
low of $16.57 USD to a high of $170. Now that company also sells
collectables such as EE Doc Smiths Lensman series including *signed*
first editions, but $170 for an every day book?

[Jim Logajan]

Post by Roger (K8RI)
Mna, did you check the price ranges through Amazon? They run from a
low of $16.57 USD to a high of $170. Now that company also sells
collectables such as EE Doc Smiths Lensman series including *signed*
first editions, but $170 for an every day book?

Sounds like some use the same reasoning as the kid who charges $100/glass
at his lemonade stand. He's not counting on selling a lot of glasses - just
that there is one fool to make his day.

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Jim Logajan

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), vic20owner

Post by vic20owner
I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die"

I'd like to get a copy and I'd have to read the book to judge ...Who
is the author and publisher?

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250617035&sr=8-2

Just getting back in the saddle today and that one looked pretty good
to a couple I did in a much larger (and faster) plane.<:-)) with about
an 8 knot cross wind at 90 degrees.

[Franklin >]

Post by vic20owner
Back to the original question, one thing to consider in a situation
like this is that you are practically already on the ground. Trying
to climb out again for a go around after losing so much speed is where
many pilots stall and crash. I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die" and this is a very common scenario ...
sometimes a hard bounce damages the plane (unknown to the pilot) and
the attempt to go around ends horribly. In other cases they cannot
regain speed, forget to retract the flaps, or any number of other
things which contribute to a stall at a dangerous altitude (75-200
feet). The conclusion was that touch and go's (due to the amount of
possibilities for error and lack of time to react) are much higher
risk than a hard landing. This is what I have deduced from the book
anyway.
In any event the book is an interesting read and worth having a look
at.
-tom

This is the stupidest aviation post I hve ever read.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:03:42 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin

Post by Franklin >

Post by vic20owner
Back to the original question, one thing to consider in a situation
like this is that you are practically already on the ground. Trying
to climb out again for a go around after losing so much speed is where
many pilots stall and crash. I am reading a book now called "Killing
Zone, how and why pilots die" and this is a very common scenario ...
sometimes a hard bounce damages the plane (unknown to the pilot) and
the attempt to go around ends horribly. In other cases they cannot
regain speed, forget to retract the flaps, or any number of other
things which contribute to a stall at a dangerous altitude (75-200
feet). The conclusion was that touch and go's (due to the amount of
possibilities for error and lack of time to react) are much higher
risk than a hard landing. This is what I have deduced from the book
anyway.
In any event the book is an interesting read and worth having a look
at.
-tom

This is the stupidest aviation post I hve ever read.

I'd not phrase it that was as this is a student news group and they
need to learn.

The mistake in that post *normally* it is both easier and much safer
to abort a landing than to try and salvage one gone wrong.

The student should remember that "Unless you are on fire, running out
of fuel, the pilot is dying and needs to save the passengers, or you
are on a short, one-way strip" you do not have to land!" As the old
saying goes, the landing isn't over until you're parked. I'd advise
taking off again once the roll out is about done, but even then there
might be something coming up fast from behind.

For the normal student situation, never commit to a landing until you
are stopped is probably a good approach (no pun intended).

[Jim Logajan]

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:03:42 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin

Post by Franklin >
This is the stupidest aviation post I hve ever read.

I'd not phrase it that was as this is a student news group and they
need to learn.

Just FYI in case you haven't noticed: the poster using the <"Franklin
<never.c"@red.about.it>> handle has posted a fair number of troll messages
in the aviation groups in an attempt to garner attention.

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Jim Logajan

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:03:42 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin

Post by Franklin >
This is the stupidest aviation post I hve ever read.

I'd not phrase it that was as this is a student news group and they
need to learn.

Just FYI in case you haven't noticed: the poster using the <"Franklin
in the aviation groups in an attempt to garner attention.

Thanks Jim, I haven't been real consistent in keeping up with the
groups so I hadn't caught on to that yet

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Mike Ash
In article

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider? I
could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,
a fact which I have extremely grateful for on many occasions when
landing in breathtakingly violent turbulence. Landing in rotor can be,
um, interesting.
There are two basic things which could cause a balloon that I can think
of. The first would be a horizontal gust. If you get hit from the front,
you'll go up. The second would be simple overreaction on the controls.
If you flare too aggressively, back up you go.

True. His flare looked good and he held horizontal a ways before
balooning so I'd guess it was the head wind component in a gust.

Post by Mike Ash
I wouldn't say that it's common. I sometimes have an over-control
balloon but it's usually just a couple of feet.

Depends on how much extra speed the pilot is carying and his feel for
the plane. An over correction can do it, or no correction for the
gust will give the few feet we saw in the video. I've seen two over
corrections followed by "late on the power" with the result turning a
150 and a 172 into lawn darts on the runway.

Post by Mike Ash

Post by BeechSundowner
For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate in
my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to you? I
would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your nose to get
back the very little precious airspeed you have?

Right, you'd want to push the nose down and put the spoilers in. Nose
down will get speed back up and also arrest the climb, and shouldn't
need to be too far down to do this. Spoilers in makes your energy bleed
off *much* slower (in my glider, going from full spoilers to no spoilers
will decrease drag by a factor of 5 or so) and also decreases your stall
speed by a few knots.
Gliders are usually light and responsive and so the pilot should be able
to stop the climb and keep things under control without getting too
high. The "interesting" glider balloons on landing at my airport are
usually students, although nobody is immune.

[Franklin >]

Post by Roger (K8RI)

Post by Mike Ash
In article

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider? I
could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,
a fact which I have extremely grateful for on many occasions when
landing in breathtakingly violent turbulence. Landing in rotor can be,
um, interesting.
There are two basic things which could cause a balloon that I can think
of. The first would be a horizontal gust. If you get hit from the front,
you'll go up. The second would be simple overreaction on the controls.
If you flare too aggressively, back up you go.

True. His flare looked good and he held horizontal a ways before
balooning so I'd guess it was the head wind component in a gust.

Post by Mike Ash
I wouldn't say that it's common. I sometimes have an over-control
balloon but it's usually just a couple of feet.

Depends on how much extra speed the pilot is carying and his feel for
the plane. An over correction can do it, or no correction for the
gust will give the few feet we saw in the video. I've seen two over
corrections followed by "late on the power" with the result turning a
150 and a 172 into lawn darts on the runway.

Post by Mike Ash

Post by BeechSundowner
For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate in
my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to you? I
would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your nose to get
back the very little precious airspeed you have?

Right, you'd want to push the nose down and put the spoilers in. Nose
down will get speed back up and also arrest the climb, and shouldn't
need to be too far down to do this. Spoilers in makes your energy bleed
off *much* slower (in my glider, going from full spoilers to no spoilers
will decrease drag by a factor of 5 or so) and also decreases your stall
speed by a few knots.
Gliders are usually light and responsive and so the pilot should be able
to stop the climb and keep things under control without getting too
high. The "interesting" glider balloons on landing at my airport are
usually students, although nobody is immune.

Roger

No need to troll the group. I found all of your poast/answrs in Google.
Please, there are lives at stake here.

Franklin

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:21:22 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin

Post by Franklin >

Post by Roger (K8RI)

Post by Mike Ash
In article

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I can't
say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough airspeed to stall
if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed amount of energy when you
come over the threshold and it's not a lot. That energy bleeds off, and
if you pull up and convert too much of it into altitude, the energy
remaining in airspeed may be too little to keep flying, and you'll come
down hard. On a calm day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and
stall onto the pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If
I put the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed too
high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full flaps on
calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider? I
could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the way,
a fact which I have extremely grateful for on many occasions when
landing in breathtakingly violent turbulence. Landing in rotor can be,
um, interesting.
There are two basic things which could cause a balloon that I can think
of. The first would be a horizontal gust. If you get hit from the front,
you'll go up. The second would be simple overreaction on the controls.
If you flare too aggressively, back up you go.

True. His flare looked good and he held horizontal a ways before
balooning so I'd guess it was the head wind component in a gust.

Post by Mike Ash
I wouldn't say that it's common. I sometimes have an over-control
balloon but it's usually just a couple of feet.

Depends on how much extra speed the pilot is carying and his feel for
the plane. An over correction can do it, or no correction for the
gust will give the few feet we saw in the video. I've seen two over
corrections followed by "late on the power" with the result turning a
150 and a 172 into lawn darts on the runway.

Post by Mike Ash

Post by BeechSundowner
For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate in
my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to you? I
would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your nose to get
back the very little precious airspeed you have?

Right, you'd want to push the nose down and put the spoilers in. Nose
down will get speed back up and also arrest the climb, and shouldn't
need to be too far down to do this. Spoilers in makes your energy bleed
off *much* slower (in my glider, going from full spoilers to no spoilers
will decrease drag by a factor of 5 or so) and also decreases your stall
speed by a few knots.
Gliders are usually light and responsive and so the pilot should be able
to stop the climb and keep things under control without getting too
high. The "interesting" glider balloons on landing at my airport are
usually students, although nobody is immune.

Roger
No need to troll the group. I found all of your poast/answrs in Google.
Please, there are lives at stake here.

I don't know why you directed that at me or in that vein, but I
assure you that my answers are *serious*. Incidentally the pilot that
turned the one plane into a lawn dart from balooning as a student did
the same thing in a 172 after getting his license. Both times he put
shoulders in the Cessna wings, and both times he had no more than a
few light bruises. He quit flying after that. Some one asked about
powered planes and I answered, particularly as the original plane in
question was powered.

Post by Franklin >
Franklin

[Franklin]

Post by Franklin >

Post by Roger (K8RI)

Post by Mike Ash
In article

Post by BeechSundowner

Post by Mike Ash
I'm not sure what recovery procedure is in a powered plane so I
can't say for sure, but yes, you certainly could lose enough
airspeed to stall if you screw it up enough. You have a fixed
amount of energy when you come over the threshold and it's not a
lot. That energy bleeds off, and if you pull up and convert too
much of it into altitude, the energy remaining in airspeed may be
too little to keep flying, and you'll come down hard. On a calm
day, I'll come over the threshold at 55kts and stall onto the
pavement at around 40kts, which is not a huge margin. If I put
the flaps all the way down the stall goes down to 28kts, but they
add so much drag that the roundout and flare needs to be at an
absolutely perfect altitude, otherwise I'll run out of airspeed
too high. For what I assume are obvious reasons, I only use full
flaps on calm days.

Interesting Mike! Is ballooning a common occurrence in a glider?
I could see it happening should you hit a thermal over the runway?

It's not common to balloon more than a couple of feet. A thermal
generally wouldn't do it. The vertical movement of the atmosphere is
greatly restricted below 50ft or so because the ground gets in the
way, a fact which I have extremely grateful for on many occasions
when landing in breathtakingly violent turbulence. Landing in rotor
can be, um, interesting.
There are two basic things which could cause a balloon that I can
think of. The first would be a horizontal gust. If you get hit from
the front, you'll go up. The second would be simple overreaction on
the controls. If you flare too aggressively, back up you go.

True. His flare looked good and he held horizontal a ways before
balooning so I'd guess it was the head wind component in a gust.

Post by Mike Ash
I wouldn't say that it's common. I sometimes have an over-control
balloon but it's usually just a couple of feet.

Depends on how much extra speed the pilot is carying and his feel for
the plane. An over correction can do it, or no correction for the
gust will give the few feet we saw in the video. I've seen two over
corrections followed by "late on the power" with the result turning a
150 and a 172 into lawn darts on the runway.

Post by Mike Ash

Post by BeechSundowner
For me, I usually will add a touch of power to arrest the sink rate
in my plane, but that option obviously would not be available to
you? I would think if you balloon, you would have to lower your
nose to get back the very little precious airspeed you have?

Right, you'd want to push the nose down and put the spoilers in. Nose
down will get speed back up and also arrest the climb, and shouldn't
need to be too far down to do this. Spoilers in makes your energy
bleed off *much* slower (in my glider, going from full spoilers to no
spoilers will decrease drag by a factor of 5 or so) and also
decreases your stall speed by a few knots.
Gliders are usually light and responsive and so the pilot should be
able to stop the climb and keep things under control without getting
too high. The "interesting" glider balloons on landing at my airport
are usually students, although nobody is immune.

Roger
No need to troll the group. I found all of your poast/answrs in
Google. Please, there are lives at stake here.
Franklin

Roger's post is useful. Why do you deliberately antagonize him?

There are lives at stake here.

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by Alt Beer

Post by A Lieberman
http://youtu.be/qeNNULCL4Mw
I was to go with a friend as I had not flown with him since he getting
his PPL
Winds were above his Xwind limits so I told him grab a CFI to
experience what I considered rather mild crosswinds. I told him I
wouldn't be comfortable from the right seat and I am not a CFI but
today was certainly a flyable day. So he called his brother who is a
CFI.
It would be interesting to hear what others would have done on the
first landing.
My "Howard Cosell" in the action commentary is in the video.

Looks like he is landing flat most of the time or is it just looking that
way on video?

He's a tad fast, but the winds are gusty. All of the landings look
good. He could have compensated for the head on gusts causing the
small amount of ballooning, But even then the landings looked good to
me.

Under similar conditions I saw a twin Comanche pop nearly 50 feet up
which left him to slow to fly and too high to land. Full power and a
bit of wallowing in ground effect and he saved it. <:-))