Logging PIC Time

[Antoine Lacroix]

Hello All:

I want to know if as a licensed private pilot, I can log PIC time when I
receive instruction for instance, when transitioning from a C-172 to a
PA-28-161 or when receiving recurrent training. In the past, I have had a
flight instructor who filled both the 'dual received' and 'pilot in command'
and on some occasion only 'pilot in command'.

There seems to be a rationale for allowing 'pilot in command' based on the
'..is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated or has privileges'. I took some recurrent training recently
on the C-172 and noticed that the instructor did not fill the PIC boxes.
Should he have done so ?
thanks

[Mark Hansen]

Are you based in the U.S.? I'm familiar with the US CFR 14 Part 61, so
my answers are couched in this set of regulations.

Post by Antoine Lacroix
I want to know if as a licensed private pilot, I can log PIC time when I
receive instruction for instance, when transitioning from a C-172 to a
PA-28-161 or when receiving recurrent training. In the past, I have had a
flight instructor who filled both the 'dual received' and 'pilot in command'
and on some occasion only 'pilot in command'.

It would have been better if he explained why he was doing what he was
doing, but the regs will clear up any confusion in this case...

Post by Antoine Lacroix
There seems to be a rationale for allowing 'pilot in command' based on the
'..is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated or has privileges'.

And in this case, the regulations agree with you, word for word :-)

Where some people get tripped up, is the phrase "... for which the pilot
is rated or has privileges." What is your pilot rating? ASEL (Airplane,
single-engine land). Is the PA-28 161 a single-engine airplane? Then you
are "rated".

Note that I thought that if a type certificate is required, then you would
need to have the type certificate as well, but I don't see that now. Am I
wrong about that?

Post by Antoine Lacroix
I took some recurrent training recently
on the C-172 and noticed that the instructor did not fill the PIC boxes.
Should he have done so ?
thanks

During your initial pilot training, the responsibility for filling out
your logbook should transition from your instructor to you. As soon as
you're a certificated private pilot, it is yours. As you get additional
training, the instructor may want to (and need to) write some information
in the log (especially signatures/certificate numbers where necessary)
but you should make sure everything necessary is there - including the
hours in the appropriate columns.

So, yes, you should fix the log entry.

As you look back over your logbook, do you see other entries that were
incorrectly completed? If so, you should fix them as well.

I remember soon after I received my PP certificate I took some dual
time in a complex airplane (PA28R180, if I remember correctly). The
instructor said I was not allowed to log the time as PIC as I didn't
have a complex endorsement. He was wrong, of course, but it took me
some time to figure this out. Once I did, I just created a new entry
in my log to add the PIC time, with a comment that it was a correction
for the previous entry.

The specific reg is 61.51 (e) 1 (i). Have a look and see if you still
have any questions.

Best Regards,

[C Gattman]

I want to know if as a licensed private pilot,  I can log PIC time when I
receive instruction for instance, when transitioning from a C-172 to a
PA-28-161 or when receiving recurrent training.  In the past, I have had a
flight instructor who filled both the 'dual received' and 'pilot in command'
and on some occasion only 'pilot in command'.

You can log it as PIC time. The quirk is that your instructor can log
it too.

14 CFR 61.31(e) may be a bit ambiguous about it, but here are the
salient points:

"A sport, recreational, private or commercial pilot may log PIC time
only for that flight time during which that person (1) is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is
rated or has priveleges....

But, the same part says:

"(iii) [A student pilot may log PIC time only when the student
pilot...] Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating"

If you're just transitioning from a basic ASEL to another and you're
already a pilot, you're rated. Log it. The instructor shouldn't be
flying, he should be instructing while -you- fly. Right?

At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.

To be on the safe side, I checked my logbook. All of my checkouts,
complex and high performance training was logged as PIC, by different
instructors, and neither my Instrument, Commercial nor CFI examiners
disputed the entries. Neither have any CFIs.

-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

[Mark Hansen]

Post by C Gattman

Post by Antoine Lacroix
I want to know if as a licensed private pilot, I can log PIC time when I
receive instruction for instance, when transitioning from a C-172 to a
PA-28-161 or when receiving recurrent training. In the past, I have had a
flight instructor who filled both the 'dual received' and 'pilot in command'
and on some occasion only 'pilot in command'.

You can log it as PIC time. The quirk is that your instructor can log
it too.
14 CFR 61.31(e) may be a bit ambiguous about it, but here are the
"A sport, recreational, private or commercial pilot may log PIC time
only for that flight time during which that person (1) is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is
rated or has priveleges....
"(iii) [A student pilot may log PIC time only when the student
pilot...] Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating"
If you're just transitioning from a basic ASEL to another and you're
already a pilot, you're rated. Log it. The instructor shouldn't be
flying, he should be instructing while -you- fly. Right?
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.

Are you sure about the multi-engine training? Doesn't Multi-engine
require a new rating? Is the PP-ASEL rated for multi-engine?

I don't think the PP-ASEL which has no multi-engine rating can log
flight time in a multi-engine aircraft as PIC per 61.51(e)1(i).

Post by C Gattman
To be on the safe side, I checked my logbook. All of my checkouts,
complex and high performance training was logged as PIC, by different
instructors, and neither my Instrument, Commercial nor CFI examiners
disputed the entries. Neither have any CFIs.

I agree with all that. I just have a problem with the multi-engine :-)

Perhaps it's just multi-engine envy?

Post by C Gattman
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

BTW, Nice to see you back here Chris. Most of the regulars of days
past are missing these days :-( ... even though it's been pretty
tame lately.

[C Gattman]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by C Gattman
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.

Are you sure about the multi-engine training?

You know, Mark, I'm not sure about that one. I think you're right; it
requires a new rating so you wouldn't log PIC time in it until you
were rated.

Post by Mark Hansen
BTW, Nice to see you back here Chris. Most of the regulars of days past are missing these days :-(   ... even though it's been pretty
tame lately.

Wow, thanks! I quit my sysadmin job to take up flying so even though
business is slow these days, I'm not around my computer as often.

Incidentally, the only way I could afford to do it was to wait until
my wife finished college and started work. I heeded VERY GOOD ADVICE
from CFIs out here about not making the jump without a second source
of income. (She says she probably enjoys her job as much as I do mine,
but, even on the down days I get to play in the Frasca simulator or
talk to transient pilots, and so far we've had Dick Rutan, Morgan
Freeman, Ringo Starr and a couple of other fascinating personalities
come through the office, Blackhawks, P-2s and P-3 firebombers coming
in for fuel, and a B-17 up on jacks swinging its landing gear right
outside... This is what the senior CFIs and locals call a dead
season...)

I'm not at the airport right now but I'm curious to see what the multi
instructors have to say. I'm pretty sure you're correct, though.
Cheers!

-c

[Tom L.]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT), C Gattman

Post by C Gattman
....
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.
...
...
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

Are you sure about this? I don't think that this is the same principle
because:

A private pilot working towards high performance can log dual received
as PIC time because he/she is rated for that aircraft (even if not yet
endorsed for HP).

However:
For a student pilot (pre-PP), 61.51.(e)(4) applies, and paragraphs
(i), (ii), and (iii) are AND-ed together here, i.e. the student has to
be the sole ocupant of the aircraft to log PIC. Duals received can't
be logged as pic time.


- Tom

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Tom L.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT), C Gattman

Post by C Gattman
....
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.
...
...
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

Are you sure about this? I don't think that this is the same principle
A private pilot working towards high performance can log dual received
as PIC time because he/she is rated for that aircraft (even if not yet
endorsed for HP).
For a student pilot (pre-PP), 61.51.(e)(4) applies, and paragraphs
(i), (ii), and (iii) are AND-ed together here, i.e. the student has to
be the sole ocupant of the aircraft to log PIC. Duals received can't
be logged as pic time.
- Tom

But we're talking about how the OP should be logging his time, and he
is a PP (not student pilot). Obviously, student pilots and private
pilots need to follow different logging rules.

[Tom L.]

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:17:17 -0700, Mark Hansen

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Tom L.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT), C Gattman

Post by C Gattman
....
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.
...
...
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

Are you sure about this? I don't think that this is the same principle
A private pilot working towards high performance can log dual received
as PIC time because he/she is rated for that aircraft (even if not yet
endorsed for HP).
For a student pilot (pre-PP), 61.51.(e)(4) applies, and paragraphs
(i), (ii), and (iii) are AND-ed together here, i.e. the student has to
be the sole ocupant of the aircraft to log PIC. Duals received can't
be logged as pic time.
- Tom

But we're talking about how the OP should be logging his time, and he
is a PP (not student pilot). Obviously, student pilots and private
pilots need to follow different logging rules.

True, and I agree about the response to the OP.

What I'm commenting on is the sentence "Log it exactly as you logged
your post-solo PIC time during your private because it's the same
principle".
He couldn't have logged his post-solo duals during his private
training as PIC, while he can log his high performance / complex duals
as PIC. So the principle is not the same. Nor the logging is the same.

- Tom

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Tom L.
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:17:17 -0700, Mark Hansen

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Tom L.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT), C Gattman

Post by C Gattman
....
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.
...
...
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

Are you sure about this? I don't think that this is the same principle
A private pilot working towards high performance can log dual received
as PIC time because he/she is rated for that aircraft (even if not yet
endorsed for HP).
For a student pilot (pre-PP), 61.51.(e)(4) applies, and paragraphs
(i), (ii), and (iii) are AND-ed together here, i.e. the student has to
be the sole ocupant of the aircraft to log PIC. Duals received can't
be logged as pic time.
- Tom

But we're talking about how the OP should be logging his time, and he
is a PP (not student pilot). Obviously, student pilots and private
pilots need to follow different logging rules.

True, and I agree about the response to the OP.
What I'm commenting on is the sentence "Log it exactly as you logged
your post-solo PIC time during your private because it's the same
principle".
He couldn't have logged his post-solo duals during his private
training as PIC, while he can log his high performance / complex duals
as PIC. So the principle is not the same. Nor the logging is the same.
- Tom

Yes, sorry. I missed that.

Best Regards,

[Antoine Lacroix]

Thanks to all for the very valid information. To summarize:

As a licensed private pilot (PP-ASEL) :

* I CAN log PIC while flying with an instructor during IFR training (single)
and high performance/complex single-engine transition

* I CANNOT log PIC while flying with an instructor for multi-engine
training.

best to all,
Antoine Lacroix

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Tom L.
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:17:17 -0700, Mark Hansen

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Tom L.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT), C Gattman

Post by C Gattman
....
At some point, you will become a complex, high performance, multi or
taildragger student. Log it exactly as you logged your post-solo PIC
time during your private because it's the same principle.
...
...
-Chris Gattman
CFI, KTTD

Are you sure about this? I don't think that this is the same principle
A private pilot working towards high performance can log dual received
as PIC time because he/she is rated for that aircraft (even if not yet
endorsed for HP).
For a student pilot (pre-PP), 61.51.(e)(4) applies, and paragraphs
(i), (ii), and (iii) are AND-ed together here, i.e. the student has to
be the sole ocupant of the aircraft to log PIC. Duals received can't
be logged as pic time.
- Tom

But we're talking about how the OP should be logging his time, and he
is a PP (not student pilot). Obviously, student pilots and private
pilots need to follow different logging rules.

True, and I agree about the response to the OP.
What I'm commenting on is the sentence "Log it exactly as you logged
your post-solo PIC time during your private because it's the same
principle".
He couldn't have logged his post-solo duals during his private
training as PIC, while he can log his high performance / complex duals
as PIC. So the principle is not the same. Nor the logging is the same.
- Tom

Yes, sorry. I missed that.
Best Regards,
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

well ... Certificated :-)

Post by Antoine Lacroix
* I CAN log PIC while flying with an instructor during IFR training (single)
and high performance/complex single-engine transition

In general, yes. Unless that airplane requires a type ceritifcate and you
don't hold it.

Post by Antoine Lacroix
* I CANNOT log PIC while flying with an instructor for multi-engine
training.

Unless you hold a pilot certificate with a Multi-Engine rating, in which
case you can.

But yes, for you both are currently true.

Post by Antoine Lacroix
best to all,
Antoine Lacroix

Have fun with your training. I've always enjoyed all the training I've
taken to date, and look forward to the next lump coming :-)

[C Gattman]

Post by Tom L.
True, and I agree about the response to the OP.
What I'm commenting on is the sentence "Log it exactly as you logged
your post-solo PIC time during your private because it's the same
principle".
He couldn't have logged his post-solo duals during his private
training as PIC

That time is not PIC time, but, I see where I was ambiguous. My error.