How to best inspect fuel quantity in a PA28?

[Shane]

Hi

Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel they
have in the tanks of
their PA28?

I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above this
mark is it safe to eyeball?

Shane

[James Ricks]

Post by Shane
how do people judge how much fuel they
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) .

It might be a little time consuming, but I suppose you could go to the nearby
self-serve fuel pump armed with a stick of your own and a nearly empty fuel
tank (are they the same size/configuration?) and put a known quantity of fuel
in the tank (1-2 gal), dip and mark the stick, repeat as desired and have your
own fuel dipstick.

Jim

[NW_PILOT]

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel they
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above this
mark is it safe to eyeball?
Shane

Fill, it up prior to ever flight that way you know you have said amount of
fuel no need for a dip stick.

[A Lieberman]

Post by NW_PILOT
Fill, it up prior to ever flight that way you know you have said amount of
fuel no need for a dip stick.

NW_Pilot,

There would be a need for a dip stick if the original poster had weight and
balances issues.

Filling up may be nice, but not so nice.....

Allen

[SR20GOER]

When i had the 172M which was regularly weight limited due its horsepower I
did that very thing over several fills - purchased a hollow dipstick with
graduations and filled in small increments, then designed a conversion card.
Seemed to be very accurate overall although i never flew to the last drop.

I have seen plenty of dipsticks - usually wood dowel - marked for Tomahawk,
Warrior, Archer, etc. Far more accurate than gauges but still dependent on
slope, and where in the tank you put the disptick via the filler each time.
Wood dowel can be a trick as it soaks up fuel and may show a higher reading
if you have it in too long.

However, when you get to the Saratoga you either fill the tanks or put a lot
of faith in the gauges and fuel burn calcs.

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel

they

Post by Shane
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above

this

Post by Shane
mark is it safe to eyeball?
Shane

Fill, it up prior to ever flight that way you know you have said amount of
fuel no need for a dip stick.

[Andrew Sarangan]

You can use a universal dipstick if your airplane does not have a
calibrated stick. It is in inches (instead of gallons), and is far
better than eyeballing or wetting your finger to estimate the fuel
level.

Carrying extra fuel is never a bad idea, but filling the tanks before
every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful.

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much
fuel

they

Post by Shane
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've
never seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below /
above

this

Post by Shane
mark is it safe to eyeball?
Shane

Fill, it up prior to ever flight that way you know you have said
amount of fuel no need for a dip stick.

[NW_PILOT]

Post by Andrew Sarangan
You can use a universal dipstick if your airplane does not have a
calibrated stick. It is in inches (instead of gallons), and is far
better than eyeballing or wetting your finger to estimate the fuel
level.
Carrying extra fuel is never a bad idea, but filling the tanks before
every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful.

"filling the tanks before every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful"
??? Well it's Safer than taking off with out knowing how much fuel you have,
and as for weight I would rather leave something other than fuel on the
ground. Some people have to learn how to say "NO" sorry you weigh to
much!!!!!!! I cannot take you due to aircraft limits.

[SR20GOER]

However, there are circumstances where fuel limiting is necessary -
joyflights and parachuting where safety and economics must be melded
together and knowing accurate fuel tank quantities is essential.
Likewise, even for private ops there can be times when running say 80% max
fuel makes the difference between 2 or 3 onboard. If you are doing 20 hours
Outback at $230 per hour, dividing it 3 ways instead of 2 is a big motivator
for fuel management.

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by Andrew Sarangan
You can use a universal dipstick if your airplane does not have a
calibrated stick. It is in inches (instead of gallons), and is far
better than eyeballing or wetting your finger to estimate the fuel
level.
Carrying extra fuel is never a bad idea, but filling the tanks before
every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful.

"filling the tanks before every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful"
??? Well it's Safer than taking off with out knowing how much fuel you have,
and as for weight I would rather leave something other than fuel on the
ground. Some people have to learn how to say "NO" sorry you weigh to
much!!!!!!! I cannot take you due to aircraft limits.

[Andrew Sarangan]

I never said you should take off without knowning how much fuel you
have. Careful fuel planning is not the same as filling the tanks every
time. One hour of reserve is plenty. What purpose does 5 hours of fuel
serve for a one hour flight? If aircraft designers go through great
pains to squeeze a few extra pounds of useful load, it is a shame when
pilots are willing to throw a few hundred pounds of extra fuel and think
nothing of it.

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by Andrew Sarangan
You can use a universal dipstick if your airplane does not have a
calibrated stick. It is in inches (instead of gallons), and is far
better than eyeballing or wetting your finger to estimate the fuel
level.
Carrying extra fuel is never a bad idea, but filling the tanks before
every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful.

"filling the tanks before every single flight is unnecessary and
wasteful" ??? Well it's Safer than taking off with out knowing how
much fuel you have, and as for weight I would rather leave something
other than fuel on the ground. Some people have to learn how to say
"NO" sorry you weigh to much!!!!!!! I cannot take you due to aircraft
limits.

[Bernd Aldenhövel]

Hi,

Post by NW_PILOT
"filling the tanks before every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful"
??? Well it's Safer than taking off with out knowing how much fuel you have,

Of course not, fuel is an issue that must be addressed. Asking about how
to inspect is means that someone is willing to do so.

Post by NW_PILOT
and as for weight I would rather leave something other than fuel on the
ground. Some people have to learn how to say "NO" sorry you weigh to
much!!!!!!! I cannot take you due to aircraft limits.

When I had my checkride, w&b was an issue because the DE weighed about
90 kg, myself being 80 kg. The plane being a C152 capable to carry up to
220 kg more than its own weight, and a tank volume of 90 l.

Which meant: Thinking about it and starting with less fuel than the max
possible account was part of the test :-)

Greetings,
Bernd

[Robert M. Gary]

But not as safe as actually measuring the fuel.
Sounds like you would say "No, sorry I'm not going to take you up for
1/2 hour because I can't carry 5 hours of fuel at the same time". Makes
no sense. Measure, calcluate is safe. Fill it and forget it is childish.

[Peter R.]

Post by NW_PILOT
"filling the tanks before every single flight is unnecessary and wasteful"
??? Well it's Safer than taking off with out knowing how much fuel you have,
and as for weight I would rather leave something other than fuel on the
ground. Some people have to learn how to say "NO" sorry you weigh to
much!!!!!!! I cannot take you due to aircraft limits.

I successfully used a C172SP for approximately 30 Angel Flight missions
and just about every one of these flights mandated less fuel than full
due to the weight of the AF passengers and their luggage. Most times,
all four seats were full.

Proper flight planning with comfortable fuel reserves ensured fuel
confidence at every landing.

[Robert M. Gary]

Sounds like a Cessna pilot. I can count on one hand the number of times
I've filled my Mooney to the top. Its not a W&B issue, the Mooney has
enormous capacity. Flying a plane with 3 hours of fuel just performance
better than a plane with 8 hours of fuel. As you start flying higher
performance aircraft the old "fill it and forget it" thinking has to
fall away. Ever heard of a 747 getting topped off?

[Blanche Cohen]

I have a wooden stick (paint stirrer from a hardware store) that I have
the tab level marked. But that's just for show & tell to Cessna
pilots. When I check fuel, if it's below the tabs, I add fuel.
If it's above the tabs, it depends entirely on 1) temperature, 2)
how many people and gear will be in the aircraft.

My personal rule, NEVER to be violated --- if not above the tabs,
add fuel *at least* to the tabs. Hence I never start a flight without
at least 36 gal of fuel (or 3+ hours). Personally, I don't care if
the level is between the tabs and full.

[Ron Natalie]

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel they
have in the tanks of
their PA28?

Just don't use an open flame.

[d&tm]

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel they
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above this
mark is it safe to eyebal

Shane, not a dumb question at all, I had intended to ask myself. Likewise i
did all my basic training in a C150 and we always checked the fuel quantity
with a dipstick, then I transitioned to the Warrior for the Navigation phase
of my training. Low and behold there were no dipsticks for the Warriors. I
was taught that when the fuel was down to the tab this was half an hour out
of the tank. None of my instructors ever gave me a very good reason why
there wasnt a dipstick for the Warrior, but then when I looked closely at
the design of the fuel tank I realised that a dipstick would not be as much
use. With a C150 the wing is pretty much horizontal, but with the Warrior
there is a lot of dihedral in the wing and fuel filler cap is at the upper
end of the tank , ie the high end of the dihedral, so even when a dipstick
showed MT here there could still be a fair bit of fuel left in the tank.
Have a close look next time. I just dont take a Warrior out unless at least
one tank is at the tab level. I am not saying this is the right answer to
your question, just my own rationalisation of what seems a strange
situation.
i dont know whether or not you can get a dipstick for the Warrior.
Terry
student down under

[N***@easily.co.uk]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:54:53 +1000, "d&tm"

Post by d&tm

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel

they

Post by Shane
have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above

this

Post by Shane
mark is it safe to eyebal

Shane, not a dumb question at all, I had intended to ask myself. Likewise i
did all my basic training in a C150 and we always checked the fuel quantity
with a dipstick, then I transitioned to the Warrior for the Navigation phase
of my training. Low and behold there were no dipsticks for the Warriors. I
was taught that when the fuel was down to the tab this was half an hour out
of the tank. None of my instructors ever gave me a very good reason why
there wasnt a dipstick for the Warrior, but then when I looked closely at
the design of the fuel tank I realised that a dipstick would not be as much
use. With a C150 the wing is pretty much horizontal, but with the Warrior
there is a lot of dihedral in the wing and fuel filler cap is at the upper
end of the tank , ie the high end of the dihedral, so even when a dipstick
showed MT here there could still be a fair bit of fuel left in the tank.
Have a close look next time. I just dont take a Warrior out unless at least
one tank is at the tab level. I am not saying this is the right answer to
your question, just my own rationalisation of what seems a strange
situation.
i dont know whether or not you can get a dipstick for the Warrior.
Terry
student down under

I fly a group Warrior and one of the members took the trouble to
calibrate the tanks by filling a little at a time. The aircraft has
the tubular type dipstick available but I made my own with a 5mm dowel
rod which has a rubber sleeve on the end so it can't damage the tank.

Do make sure you don't drop the dipstick inside the tank as it's a
real pain to remove according to one of our members!

I flew back from Long Island in the Bahamas with full tanks (PA28) but
strong headwinds added well over an hour to the flight. I calculated
it would not be a problem and landed with just over 30 minutes fuel
remaining (legal minimum in USA). Whilst I was confident with the
remaining fuel one of the tanks in the PA28 showed no fuel after
landing due to the slope. There was 15 minutes of fuel left but not
seeing anything registering on the stick does attract attention :-(

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I flew back from Long Island in the Bahamas with full tanks (PA28) but
strong headwinds added well over an hour to the flight. I calculated
it would not be a problem and landed with just over 30 minutes fuel
remaining (legal minimum in USA). Whilst I was confident with the
remaining fuel one of the tanks in the PA28 showed no fuel after
landing due to the slope. There was 15 minutes of fuel left but not
seeing anything registering on the stick does attract attention :-(

Note : There is no legal minumum amount of fuel you must land with.
The reg you're thinking of requires that you take off with enough fuel
for the destination +30 min. (day VFR).

The wing dihedral in the PA28 models will cause you to be looking at
the bottom of the tank (through the filler cap) when there are still
about 5 gallons left "downhill" of the filler cap.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I flew back from Long Island in the Bahamas with full tanks (PA28) but
strong headwinds added well over an hour to the flight. I calculated
it would not be a problem and landed with just over 30 minutes fuel
remaining (legal minimum in USA). Whilst I was confident with the
remaining fuel one of the tanks in the PA28 showed no fuel after
landing due to the slope. There was 15 minutes of fuel left but not
seeing anything registering on the stick does attract attention :-(

Note : There is no legal minumum amount of fuel you must land with.
The reg you're thinking of requires that you take off with enough fuel
for the destination +30 min. (day VFR).

You may well be right but I've never interpreted it like that. I'm
much happier with some reserve. Our CAA are now prosecuting pilots who
make unscheduled landings due to lack of fuel.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
The wing dihedral in the PA28 models will cause you to be looking at
the bottom of the tank (through the filler cap) when there are still
about 5 gallons left "downhill" of the filler cap.

Yes that's about right. Our Warrior is 4.3 USG per side. The aircraft
I flew to the Bahamas was a rental and after about 4.75 hours flying I
left it on the low tank as long as possible before landing.
Unfortunately I got distracted when ATC asked me to orbit for spacing
and I landed on the lowest tank :-(
Then I got hassled by the most obnoxious and unhelpful Customs you can
imagine at Fort Pierce.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

David, Scotland UK

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk

Post by j***@hotmail.com
Note : There is no legal minumum amount of fuel you must land with.
The reg you're thinking of requires that you take off with enough fuel
for the destination +30 min. (day VFR).

You may well be right but I've never interpreted it like that. I'm
much happier with some reserve. Our CAA are now prosecuting pilots who
make unscheduled landings due to lack of fuel.

Oops. I didn't notice that you were in the U.K. Your regs might be
different. U.S. regs require that you takeoff with enough fuel +
reserve. If you happen to need to use some of that reserve enroute,
you are free do do so. After all, that's what it's there for.

Of course I'm just talking about legalities. In actual practice, I
always carry 1 hr. of reserve and (so far) have always landed with at
least that 1 hr. left in the tanks.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by N***@easily.co.uk

Post by j***@hotmail.com
Note : There is no legal minumum amount of fuel you must land with.
The reg you're thinking of requires that you take off with enough fuel
for the destination +30 min. (day VFR).

You may well be right but I've never interpreted it like that. I'm
much happier with some reserve. Our CAA are now prosecuting pilots who
make unscheduled landings due to lack of fuel.

Oops. I didn't notice that you were in the U.K. Your regs might be
different. U.S. regs require that you takeoff with enough fuel +
reserve. If you happen to need to use some of that reserve enroute,
you are free do do so. After all, that's what it's there for.
Of course I'm just talking about legalities. In actual practice, I
always carry 1 hr. of reserve and (so far) have always landed with at
least that 1 hr. left in the tanks.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

No problem missing I'm in the UK. I got my FAA PPL in Floriday in 1991
so I appreciate the 30 mins reserve. I don't however expect to use it
but as you say that's what it's for. Like you I try to have an hour
resereve though in the UK you need 45 mins anyway. This particular
flight from the Bahamas had stronger winds than expected and I
calculated enough to get to my destination although I did re-assess my
options as I flew over Bimini at 11000ft.

As for fuel calculations with the PA28 it's always a compromise
between weight and fuel. I once flew with 4 people on a 2 hour flight
and insisted on a maximum of 11lb luggage each for an overnight stop!
My friends took their clothes in a plastic carrier bag :-)

David, Scotland UK

[Roy Smith]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I flew back from Long Island in the Bahamas with full tanks (PA28) but
strong headwinds added well over an hour to the flight.

I have to wonder exactly what a guy who posts from a ".co.uk" address means
by "flew back from the Bahamas" :-)

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by Roy Smith

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I flew back from Long Island in the Bahamas with full tanks (PA28) but
strong headwinds added well over an hour to the flight.

I have to wonder exactly what a guy who posts from a ".co.uk" address means
by "flew back from the Bahamas" :-)

No I didn't fly from UK :-) I have a FAA certificate so returned to
USA a couple of times to spend a week flying in the Bahamas. Last time
I managed Crooked Island. Last stop was Long Island. Left Long Island
to return to Florida but didn't like the weather so returned after
only 20 minutes. I spent the day on the beach knowing I'd made the
right deciscion but looking up at the sky made me wonder. Thought is
was hardly worth refuelling but then thought it would be safer to fill
up again. Returned the following day after the most spectacular
thunderstorms overnight. Spent most of the time at between 12,500ft
and 14000ft weaving in and out of clouds. Headwinds around 45Kt and
groundspeed down to 75 Kt at times. Any lower was turbulent.

David, Scotland UK

[a***@gmail.com]

I work with Piper Pawnees, and we installed a 70 gal gas tank, and
unfortunately our new fuel gauges came to us broken, so we took a wood
dowel, and put 5 gallons in at a time and mark the dowel. Each
airplane now has its own dummy stick...and if the pilot loses it, they
get to recalibrate a new one by themselves

[Robert M. Gary]

You can buy generic fuel sticks. Instructions come with teh stick to
calibrate it.

[Bob Gardner]

Sporty sells a Universal Fuel Guage for $11.95 with instructions for use in
various types/models of aircraft.

Bob Gardner

Post by Shane
Hi
Im sure this is a dumb question, but how do people judge how much fuel
they have in the tanks of
their PA28?
I've seen Cessna pilots with what look like fuel dip-sticks but I've never
seen a PA28 pilot do this (are there
dipsticks for the PA28??) . I know there are 'tabs' but below / above
this mark is it safe to eyeball?
Shane

[James Ricks]

Post by Bob Gardner
Sporty sells a Universal Fuel Guage for $11.95 with instructions for use in
various types/models of aircraft.
Bob Gardner

Home Depot will give you paint stirring sticks free and you can make your own
marks with Magic marker, or score with pocket knife as you fill a tank 1-2 gal
at a time.

[James Ricks]

Post by James Ricks
Home Depot will give you paint stirring sticks free and you can make your own
marks with Magic marker, or score with pocket knife as you fill a tank 1-2 gal
at a time.

Or perhaps using your own fuel consumption figures place a mark at each 1/2 hr
of time? whether that be 5 or 2 or 10 gallons- or litres- whatever you are
comfortable with and is the norm for your location.

My $.02 worth

Jim

[Robert M. Gary]

Actually, the way the generic gauges work is a bit different. To
calibrate they have you start with empty (or nearly empty tanks, in
most planes there is a certain amount of non-visible fuel, 6.5 gal in
the Mooney). As you fill it you mark the stick every 5 gals (as read
from the pump). After the tank is full you know you have whatever the
capacity of the tank is. You then go back and figure out how many
gallons you had at each point by subtracting 5 gals from full for each
mark. This assumes that a "full" tank equals the POH's fuel capacity.

-Robert

[Peter R.]

Post by James Ricks
Or perhaps using your own fuel consumption figures place a mark at each 1/2 hr
of time? whether that be 5 or 2 or 10 gallons- or litres- whatever you are
comfortable with and is the norm for your location.

Are the tanks of a PA28 (the OP's aircraft) even able to be dipped?

When I left the C172 for the Bonanza V35, I uncomfortably had to
abandon the concept of dipping the tanks due to the fact that the
inside of the tanks slope back to the trailing edge and the bottoms
cannot be seen or reached with any of the standard retail dip
tubes/paint sticks.

Thus, instead of dipping, I developed a similar rule to Blanche's fuel
rule: If I cannot see the fuel (which is below approx. 25 gallons per
tank), I fill to the bottom of the tabs.

[James Ricks]

Post by Peter R.
Are the tanks of a PA28 (the OP's aircraft) even able to be dipped?

They are on he PA28 Cherokee I fly. The filler is on the highest corner,
outside-forward, following the wing dihedral. I suppose there is a bit that is
still useable after it is not reachable with a dipstick, but I'll guarantee I
won't launch with bare tank bottom showing- unless the other one is at least
at the tab.

Jim

[jmk]

Post by Peter R.
Are the tanks of a PA28 (the OP's aircraft) even able to be dipped?

Yes, but with a caveat. The dihedral is such that there is still a LOT
of fuel left when the view straight down from the filler nozzle is
nothing but empty. A "dipping stick" is the best method, but it needs
to be held absolutely vertical, and at exactly the same place each
time. [The bottom of the tank is not completely flat, but has various
ridges and stiffeners in it.]

That being said, a calibrated dip stick and some care should get you to
within a couple of gallons accuracy (or better) on each wing.

BTW, the "dip it and then see how much fuel it takes to fill" is the
easiest way to calibrate - especially if you don't have self-serve fuel
pumps. However, what you REALLY want to know is "how much fuel do I
have left." The only real way to know that is to get the tank
virtually empty - then add fuel a few gallons at the time and dip
between each addition. Not all 36 gallon tanks will hold 36 gallons,
especially in an older plane. [Just like a lot of C-210's, that can be
off by 10 gallons or more and still be "full."]