Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

[NW_PILOT]

This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

[Peter R.]

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll

http://www.warflying.net/roll.­avi

Nice video. Are rolls an approved maneuver in a non-aerobat C150?

[Noah Fiedel]

I'm having some trouble understand NW_Pilot...

AFAIK, non aerobat 150 means simply "C150" which is not approved for
aerobatics. In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

If this was a C150, not approved for aerobatics OR you were not wearing
parachutes, I would seek a different instructor.

From the brief 5 hours of aerobatic instruction I took, there was at

least one occasion of a maneuver gone bad. The worst was a very
wound-up spin recovery that briefly led to a somewhat inverted spin.
Not fun, and I would not want to try that again in a non-aerobatic A/C.

[c***@nowhere.com]

Post by Noah Fiedel
In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Post by c***@nowhere.com

Post by Noah Fiedel
In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

Looked to me like a roll not a spin.

[c***@nowhere.com]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"

Post by Gig 601XL Builder

Post by c***@nowhere.com

Post by Noah Fiedel
In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

Looked to me like a roll not a spin.

Oooops.

Never mind.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by c***@nowhere.com

Post by Noah Fiedel
In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

A roll is not a spin. A roll is not a required manuever for a
certificate or rating, therefore parachutes are required.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[One's Too Many]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by c***@nowhere.com

Post by Noah Fiedel
In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?

Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

A roll is not a spin. A roll is not a required manuever for a
certificate or rating, therefore parachutes are required.

A roll is a just non-stalled spin, but rotated up 90 degrees to a
horizontal axis :-)

j/k!

I would've pitched the nose up just a bit higher and made it more of a
barrel roll to keep from dishing out so much at the bottom, but still
pretty nicely done for a ship with as slow a roll rate as a C150

[George Patterson]

Post by c***@nowhere.com
Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

Read the title of this thread.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Mike W.]

Post by c***@nowhere.com
Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

[Robert M. Gary]

Post by Mike W.

Post by c***@nowhere.com
Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

CFI

[kage]

"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

[BTIZ]

Post by kage
"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

Any initial CFI.. not just CFI-A,

BT

[Brad Zeigler]

Post by BTIZ

Post by kage
"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

Any initial CFI.. not just CFI-A,

wrong.

[kage]

I didn't have to for my intital CFI-I certificate.

I did to add the "A"

Karl

Post by BTIZ

Post by kage
"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

Any initial CFI.. not just CFI-A,
BT

[Ross Richardson]

Post by kage
I didn't have to for my intital CFI-I certificate.
I did to add the "A"
Karl

Post by BTIZ

Post by kage
"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

Any initial CFI.. not just CFI-A,
BT

Forgive me, but I as I look at the different rec.aviation.* I notice a
lot of cross posting. But, why does this thread need to be posted on 5
different groups.

Rant off.

[Fly]

What did you have your CFI in before you got your instrument intstructor and
later your airplane instructor add-ons?

Kent

Post by kage
I didn't have to for my intital CFI-I certificate.
I did to add the "A"

[T***@SAFe-mail.net]

Post by Fly
What did you have your CFI in before you got your instrument

intstructor and

Post by Fly
later your airplane instructor add-ons?
Kent

What makes you think he *did* have a CFI before CFI-I and CFI-A?
Many instructors get their initial CFI as a CFI-I, it doesn't have to
be an add-on.

[Fly]

Post by T***@SAFe-mail.net
What makes you think he *did* have a CFI before CFI-I and CFI-A?
Many instructors get their initial CFI as a CFI-I, it doesn't have to
be an add-on.

Well at first I guffawed, but I am also newsgoup savy enough to check before
I made a profound reply ...and you are right according to CFR
61.183(b)(2)(iv).

I have never know anybody not to get a CFI 'category' first.

However allow my opinated statement that going to all that trouble just to
hold an CFII 'only' certificate is a waste. Why would you a person want
just a CFII? And expanding the argument, I can make a case that IF a CFI
was only a CFII then that person wouldn't not... how to say it,, be legal..
to give instruction in or about the essence of piloting an aircraft outside
an instrument procedure.
Thus a 'CFII only' could not give instruction on how to apply takeoff,
climb, cruise, descent, landing techniques except only in respect to an
instrument procedure.

Put another way... If the student had very very poor x-wind skills, legally
the CFII 'only" could only just sit there, grin, and bare it,, hoping for
the best!

Kent Felkins

[Jose]

Post by Fly
Put another way... If the student had very very poor x-wind skills, legally
the CFII 'only" could only just sit there, grin, and bare it,, hoping for
the best

If the CFII were to bare it, the x-wind skills won't matter much. :)

Actually, the CF who is just an II can give instruction in anything he
or she wants... so can a non-pilot or a ham sandwich. However, that
instruction would not legally count towards the student's required dual
time (even if the student logged it).

Jose
r.a.a, r.a.s, and r.a.o retained, though I don't follow those groups.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jose
Actually, the CF who is just an II can give instruction in anything he
or she wants... so can a non-pilot or a ham sandwich.

Jose,

If you're ever flying along and a ham sandwich starts giving you tips
on your technique, I strongly suggest (for your medical's sake) that
you keep it to yourself :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

http://members.cox.net/jgalban/index.html

[Montblack]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Jose
... so can a non-pilot or a ham sandwich.

If you're ever flying along and a ham sandwich starts giving you tips
on your technique, I strongly suggest (for your medical's sake) that
you keep it to yourself :-)

Instructions from the ham sandwich:

Lean, lean.
Hold ...(the mayo)
Lettuce depart to the west.

How about a roll?

Me scared? Nope - I'm not chicken.
Whatever you do, don't "botch" this.
We're in a pickle now.


Montblack

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Post by Fly
Put another way... If the student had very very poor x-wind skills, legally
the CFII 'only" could only just sit there, grin, and bare it,, hoping for
the best!

If he's sitting there "baring it", then we'll all grin.

[c***@nowhere.com]

Post by Fly
Put another way... If the student had very very poor x-wind skills, legally
the CFII 'only" could only just sit there, grin, and bare it,, hoping for
the best!
Kent Felkins

Anybody can give any kind of instruction to anybody else.

The only issue is logging the instruction towards some kind of rating
or requirement, and the authority to issue certain endorsements.

So a CFI with only an instrument rating could teach all the x-sind
skills he cared to. It just can't be used towards a rating.

[T***@SAFe-mail.net]

Post by Fly
Well at first I guffawed, but I am also newsgoup savy enough to check before
I made a profound reply

Glad you learned something new :)
Also, it sounds like a great time to get even more newsgroup savy :)
If you do a search of past threads in rec.aviation.* you'll see that
this topic has come up a few times in the past, including some people's
reasons for choosing to get the CFI-I before the CFI-A. It does seem,
in general, to be pointless, but some people do have valid reasons.

[Fly]

Post by T***@SAFe-mail.net
Glad you learned something new :)
Also, it sounds like a great time to get even more newsgroup savy :)
If you do a search of past threads in rec.aviation.* you'll see that
this topic has come up a few times in the past, including some people's
reasons for choosing to get the CFI-I before the CFI-A. It does seem,
in general, to be pointless, but some people do have valid reasons.

Thanks for the advice TJGirl.....its a great time to teach myself AGAIN not
to reply with a cross post to all the REC.Aviation groups. I first
learned not to do that in about 1996 or 1997.

I would not be doing it this time except I have no idea which forum NW-Pilot
and you others are actually in... I guess its rec.aviation.student

seeeee ya' Honey

Kent Ok

[BTIZ]

most people don't go the CFI-I route first..

but CFI-A is not the only CFI requiring spin training..

BT
CFI-G

Post by kage
I didn't have to for my intital CFI-I certificate.
I did to add the "A"
Karl

Post by BTIZ

Post by kage
"> For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Post by Mike W.
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

CFI-A

Any initial CFI.. not just CFI-A,
BT

[Dylan Smith]

CFI-A

I suspect for CFI-G as well. However, I don't think I've met a
certificated glider pilot who hasn't done a reasonable amount of spin
training, as spinning is a bit of an occupational hazard when
thermalling on the ragged edge of a stall - some gliders don't need much
excess rudder to do a very nice spin.

[Vaughn]

Post by Dylan Smith

CFI-A

I suspect for CFI-G as well.

Yes, spin training is required for CFI-G

Vaughn (CFIG)

[Mitty]

CFI

Post by Mike W.

Post by c***@nowhere.com
Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

[c***@nowhere.com]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:35:56 -0400, "Mike W."

Post by Mike W.

Post by c***@nowhere.com
Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

For what ratings is spin training necessary? Just curious.

Flight instructor

[george]

Post by Peter R.

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll

http://www.warflying.net/roll.­avi
Nice video. Are rolls an approved maneuver in a non-aerobat C150?

I got inverted in turbulence in a C150 once and continued the roll back
to upright.
Apart from a bit of a splutter that was it.
But I do recommend wearing a 'chute if you're delibrately into aeros

[houstondan]

been a while since i drove a 152, are you starting that nose down to
get the speed up? if so, what's the speed for starting the manouver?

by the way...weren't you to have just just done a big x-c in that 150?
don't remember seeing a report on that.

personaloly, i think you can do anything in your airplane you want as
long as you don't drive it on the freeway next to me while talking on
the damn cellfone and changing lanes (g).


dan

[George Patterson]

Post by houstondan
personaloly, i think you can do anything in your airplane you want as
long as you don't drive it on the freeway next to me while talking on
the damn cellfone and changing lanes (g).

If he keeps doing unapproved maneuvers, he may wind up driving it into the freeway.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Robert M. Gary]

In the Decathlon we used to start with the nose down to pick up speed
to assure we didn't run out of energy at the top and end up with a
sloppy roll. However, the nose is always pitched up about 30 degrees
before the actual roll so that the recovery is only 30 degrees nose
down. If you started the roll from level, unless you used a lot of neg
G's on the top, you would end up about 60 degrees nose down.

-Robert, CFI

[Ed H]

Pitching the nose up 30 degrees will return you to level flight as you
complete the roll in a plane such as a Cessna or Decathlon.

A properly executed slow roll initiated from level flight will only require
1 negative G to finish in level flight. If it takes more than that, you've
let the nose drop during the knife edge.

Post by Robert M. Gary
In the Decathlon we used to start with the nose down to pick up speed
to assure we didn't run out of energy at the top and end up with a
sloppy roll. However, the nose is always pitched up about 30 degrees
before the actual roll so that the recovery is only 30 degrees nose
down. If you started the roll from level, unless you used a lot of neg
G's on the top, you would end up about 60 degrees nose down.
-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

Post by Ed H
Pitching the nose up 30 degrees will return you to level flight as you
complete the roll in a plane such as a Cessna or Decathlon.
A properly executed slow roll initiated from level flight will only require
1 negative G to finish in level flight. If it takes more than that, you've
let the nose drop during the knife edge.

I still consider 1 neg G to be a lot. Sitting in the back with your
face plastered against the ceiling while trying to ensure the plane is
coordinated is not fun.

[Ed]

Might want to tighten up your belts if your face is plastered to the
ceiling. -1G is nothing more than hanging in your belts during level
inverted flight. And the roll is not a coordinated maneuver, except at
certain parts.

Post by Noah Fiedel

Post by Ed H
Pitching the nose up 30 degrees will return you to level flight as

you

Post by Ed H
complete the roll in a plane such as a Cessna or Decathlon.
A properly executed slow roll initiated from level flight will only

require

Post by Ed H
1 negative G to finish in level flight. If it takes more than that,

you've

Post by Ed H
let the nose drop during the knife edge.

I still consider 1 neg G to be a lot. Sitting in the back with your
face plastered against the ceiling while trying to ensure the plane is
coordinated is not fun.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Post by Robert M. Gary
I still consider 1 neg G to be a lot. Sitting in the back with your
face plastered against the ceiling while trying to ensure the plane is
coordinated is not fun.

On the few occasions I've rolled aircraft in the past, I was in a five point
harness. I can't imagine hanging from a single seatbelt attached to a crappy
seat like on the C-150. Ugh...

[Happy Dog]

Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
On the few occasions I've rolled aircraft in the past, I was in a five
point harness. I can't imagine hanging from a single seatbelt attached to
a crappy seat like on the C-150. Ugh...

An aileron roll is a 1G maneuver. No hanging.

moo

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Post by Happy Dog

Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
On the few occasions I've rolled aircraft in the past, I was in a five
point harness. I can't imagine hanging from a single seatbelt attached to
a crappy seat like on the C-150. Ugh...

An aileron roll is a 1G maneuver. No hanging.

Not as I recall. A barrel roll is a 1G maneuver. An aileron roll requires a
healthy push while inverted to keep from ending up pointed downhill as you
recover. Of course, I have very limited aerobatic experience so I could be full
of crap. I don't think I am on this, though...

And I sure remember hanging from the 5 point belts wishing I wasn't. I don't
like negative G at all. I've already had enough thrills for six lifetimes.
Give me those boring flights.

[Bob Moore]

Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Not as I recall. A barrel roll is a 1G maneuver.

How can that be???? Straight and level is a 1G maneuver.

Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Not as I recall. A barrel roll is a 1G maneuver. An aileron roll
requires a healthy push while inverted to keep from ending up pointed
downhill as you recover.

From:
http://acro.harvard.edu

Aileron Roll
The aileron roll was one of the early stunts invented by pilots. Today,
there are many variations of this maneuver: slow, fast, four-point,
eight-point, barrel, etc.
Begin by increasing power to 100% and increasing the pitch attitude to
approximately 20° above straight and level flight. Next, initiate a
coordinated roll while maintaining slight back pressure on the elevator.
This back pressure maintains a constant positive G-force throughout the
roll.

Slow Roll
The slow roll is essentially the same as the aileron roll in that the
movement is around the longitudinal axis of the plane. The major
difference is that the pitch attitude is held on the horizion throughout
the roll.
Begin by increasing power to 100%. Then initiate a coordinated roll, left
or right, with ailerons and rudder. As the bank angle passes 90°, you
will have to hold the stick forward to keep the nose on the horizion.
As you complete 270° of the roll, neutralize the elevators. When the
upright horizion returns to view, increase the back pressure to maintain
straight and level attitude and reduce power to cruise (75%). The final
heading should be the same as the entry.

Barrel Roll
The Barrel Roll is a not competition maneuver. I The barrel roll is a
combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while
completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel
roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel, with
the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a cork
screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot experiences always positive
G's. The maximum is about 2.5 to 3 G, the minimum about 0.5 G.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[NW_PILOT]

Post by houstondan
been a while since i drove a 152, are you starting that nose down to
get the speed up? if so, what's the speed for starting the manouver?

Yes nose down to 120 pitch up about 20 to 40 degrees to about 97 or what
ever your maneuvering speed is full deflection to the right or left right is
easier once you see the ground cut the power to idle roll ailerons netural
when right side up.

Post by houstondan
by the way...weren't you to have just just done a big x-c in that 150?
don't remember seeing a report on that.

I aborted that flight due to weather and took the money and got me an
instrument rating and upset recovery training.

Post by houstondan
personaloly, i think you can do anything in your airplane you want as
long as you don't drive it on the freeway next to me while talking on
the damn cellfone and changing lanes (g).

I Was talking to my A&P before I went and did it in my airplane today he
said as long as I keep the G's positive it should not hurt the airframe. My
gyros on the other hand is something else recommends me getting cagable
gyros if i want to be doing spins and rolls. Ohhh my bird rolls just fine.

Post by houstondan
dan

[houstondan]

well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.

looks to me like you're learning how to actually fly that thing. good
for you.

dan

[xyzzy]

Post by houstondan
well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.

it was the 707 prototype, and the Boeing test pilot who did the roll

[Steven P. McNicoll]

Post by xyzzy
it was the 707 prototype, and the Boeing test pilot who did the roll

Test pilot Tex Johnston barrel rolled the 367-80 over Lake Washington, not
over a crowd.

[Ron Natalie]

Post by Steven P. McNicoll

Post by xyzzy
it was the 707 prototype, and the Boeing test pilot who did the roll

Test pilot Tex Johnston barrel rolled the 367-80 over Lake Washington, not
over a crowd.

Yep, and that airplane survives...it's a few giant steps outside Margy's
office.

[David Cartwright]

Post by xyzzy

Post by houstondan
well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.

it was the 707 prototype, and the Boeing test pilot who did the roll

For those who are interested, go to
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm and check out the section
labelled: "Rolling the Boeing 707 prototype". As you'll hear from the
commentary, the powers-that-be weren't all that impressed ...

D.

[houstondan]

Post by David Cartwright
For those who are interested, go to
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm and check out the section
labelled: "Rolling the Boeing 707 prototype". As you'll hear from the
commentary, the powers-that-be weren't all that impressed ...
D.

i don't know why the bosses would be upset seeing their zillion-dollar
proto upside down, 2000feet over thousands of happy boat race watchers.
fortunately, that was the boeing 707-aerobat otherwise the battery
would have leaked causing the airplane to explode killing thousands of
happy boat race watchers and little girls and cute puppies. especially
the poor helpless puppies.

yep, i remember dear old dad the test pilot mass murderer.

c'mon y'all. seems to me some folk have passed constructive criticism,
passed scolding and have gotten all the way to venomous. that crack
about the roll being sloppy was uncalled for. of course it's sloppy,
he's just learning how.

a lot of the stuff is constructive. the battery for example is good to
think about. as to abusing the aircraft so it'll kill the next
unsuspecting pilot, gimmie a break. there's a zillion ways to stress
that old airframe and a cfi-supervised roll isn't up there even with
student landings or sloppy spin/unusual attitude recovery. it's ok to
do that stuff in a 150 with no parachute isn't it?? i think nw said he
has been doing a lot of spin recovery work and got his instrument
rating so, for my money, he's gettin at this flyin stuff pretty well
and some folk need to take a pill. sure, most of the stuff y'all are
saying is right but do you really think being nasty is going to make
anyone follow that advice? if so, you've never tried to raise a
teenager...or even remember being one.

some old farts(i'm an old fart...i'm allowed) are more at risk of
giving themselves a coronary at the keyboard than nw is of ripping the
wings off that 150.

for me, i will be doing the training in a citabria and/or a super d but
when i do finally buy my own plane, and i look over and see that 707
blasting thru 50 feet off my wing and it looks like he's upside-down; i
hope i'll understand it's not him and i further hope that's not my
first roll in that craft.

dan

[xyzzy]

Post by houstondan
a lot of the stuff is constructive. the battery for example is good to
think about. as to abusing the aircraft so it'll kill the next
unsuspecting pilot, gimmie a break.

As I recall, NW PILOT owns his own 150, so he is the next pilot.

[xyzzy]

Post by houstondan
c'mon y'all. seems to me some folk have passed constructive criticism,
passed scolding and have gotten all the way to venomous.

I think a lot of the extra criticism NW is taking on this is based as
much on his past history as it is that one roll he did in his own plane
with a CFI on board. His past posts about his primary training and his
odyssey to buy his plane did not give him a reputation as a temperate
man with a calm head on his shoulders. Whether that's fair or not is
beside the point, his reputation on usenet is based exclusively on his
posting here, not on anyone actually knowing him.

I don't think what he did was wise, but we all have our own limits and
tolerance for risk. If I'm going to get mad at something someone does
in a plane, it will not be the guy who does a roll with a CFI on board
with no one around, considering, for example, the crap that certain RV
pilots pull nearly every day in the traffic pattern of my relatively
busy GA airport, for example.

[Chris W]

. . . the crap that certain RV pilots pull nearly every day in the
traffic pattern of my relatively busy GA airport, for example.

Hoping to be a future RV pilot, I am curious what kinds of things these
RV pilots at your airport are doing. Do you mind giving some examples?

[j***@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Post by Chris W

. . . the crap that certain RV pilots pull nearly every day in the
traffic pattern of my relatively busy GA airport, for example.

Hoping to be a future RV pilot, I am curious what kinds of things these
RV pilots at your airport are doing. Do you mind giving some examples?

I don't know about his airport, but at mine they have a penchant for
pretending they are a Spitfire squadron taking off to defend London
from the incoming Nazi bombers complete with the victory pass upon
their return when what they are actually doing is going for a $100
hamburger and scaring the crap out of all the students (and not a few
non-students) in the area.

There's nothing quite like the thrill of being on short final and
having 3 RV-6s roll onto the runway in front of you for their
formation takeoff.

This of course has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities of
RV aircraft and everything to do with the attitudes of some owners.

[gatt]

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
I don't know about his airport, but at mine they have a penchant for
pretending they are a Spitfire squadron taking off to defend London
from the incoming Nazi bomber

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? I DO THAT EVERY TIME I PULL OUT OF MY DRIVEWAY! ;>

Have a great weekend.

-c

[dlevy]

I sure wish I could finish my RV......

Post by gatt

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
I don't know about his airport, but at mine they have a penchant for
pretending they are a Spitfire squadron taking off to defend London
from the incoming Nazi bomber

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? I DO THAT EVERY TIME I PULL OUT OF MY DRIVEWAY! ;>
Have a great weekend.
-c

[xyzzy]

Post by Chris W

. . . the crap that certain RV pilots pull nearly every day in the
traffic pattern of my relatively busy GA airport, for example.

Hoping to be a future RV pilot, I am curious what kinds of things these
RV pilots at your airport are doing. Do you mind giving some examples?

First it's important to know there there are two flight schools at my
airport, plus it's where the students from the nearby international
airport come to practice T&G's.

Given that knowledge, the RV pilots based here:

Almost never talk on the radio.

Do acrobatics and formation flight in the pattern, sometimes directly
below (student) pilots on downwind. Getting cut off by them in the
pattern is just a rite of passage at my airport.

Make low passes over the runway in the downwind direction, ignoring the
people in the pattern.

Cut people off on runways. The worst example was a typical NC summer
morning with am morning fog starting to lift, and there were literally
10 planes lined up, engines running, waiting for the fog to lift so they
could take off. When the fog lifted, an RV came taxiing out of the
hangars, took an intersection, and took off -- not only rude, but it
forced a 172 that had already started its takeoff roll to abort.

Their reputation around here is so bad that instructors use them to
motivate students to do the right thing, for example telling a student
to clear base before turning it is one thing, but to really have an
impact they say "be sure to clear base before turning, you never know
when there might be an RV there!"

[Dave Butler]

Post by xyzzy
First it's important to know there there are two flight schools at my
airport, plus it's where the students from the nearby international
airport come to practice T&G's.

TTA?

[xyzzy]

Post by xyzzy
First it's important to know there there are two flight schools at my
airport, plus it's where the students from the nearby international
airport come to practice T&G's.

TTA?

Yup

[NW_PILOT]

Post by xyzzy

Post by Chris W

. . . the crap that certain RV pilots pull nearly every day in the
traffic pattern of my relatively busy GA airport, for example.

Hoping to be a future RV pilot, I am curious what kinds of things these
RV pilots at your airport are doing. Do you mind giving some examples?

First it's important to know there there are two flight schools at my
airport, plus it's where the students from the nearby international
airport come to practice T&G's.
Almost never talk on the radio.
Do acrobatics and formation flight in the pattern, sometimes directly
below (student) pilots on downwind. Getting cut off by them in the
pattern is just a rite of passage at my airport.
Make low passes over the runway in the downwind direction, ignoring the
people in the pattern.
Cut people off on runways. The worst example was a typical NC summer
morning with am morning fog starting to lift, and there were literally
10 planes lined up, engines running, waiting for the fog to lift so they
could take off. When the fog lifted, an RV came taxiing out of the
hangars, took an intersection, and took off -- not only rude, but it
forced a 172 that had already started its takeoff roll to abort.
Their reputation around here is so bad that instructors use them to
motivate students to do the right thing, for example telling a student
to clear base before turning it is one thing, but to really have an
impact they say "be sure to clear base before turning, you never know
when there might be an RV there!"

Yea some of them RV's are small and moving fast are hard to see.

[NW_PILOT]

Post by xyzzy

Post by houstondan
c'mon y'all. seems to me some folk have passed constructive criticism,
passed scolding and have gotten all the way to venomous.

I think a lot of the extra criticism NW is taking on this is based as
much on his past history as it is that one roll he did in his own plane
with a CFI on board. His past posts about his primary training and his
odyssey to buy his plane did not give him a reputation as a temperate
man with a calm head on his shoulders. Whether that's fair or not is
beside the point, his reputation on usenet is based exclusively on his
posting here, not on anyone actually knowing him.

Correct no one here knows me personally.

Post by xyzzy
I don't think what he did was wise, but we all have our own limits and
tolerance for risk. If I'm going to get mad at something someone does
in a plane, it will not be the guy who does a roll with a CFI on board
with no one around, considering, for example, the crap that certain RV
pilots pull nearly every day in the traffic pattern of my relatively
busy GA airport, for example.

[Montblack]

("David Cartwright" wrote)
[snip]

Post by David Cartwright
For those who are interested, go to
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm and check out the section
labelled: "Rolling the Boeing 707 prototype". As you'll hear from the
commentary, the powers-that-be weren't all that impressed ...

After the stunt made headlines all over the world, and was the talk of the
aviation world for months, orders started pouring in for the new plane -
orders from decision making (old school) executives who didn't understand
these new jets, but understood a barrel roll - and what was needed to make
that happen. This is my understanding of the aftermath of "The Barrel Roll."

New Coke into Classic Coke ....... from a bad to a good outcome.


Montblack

[Dave Stadt]

Post by David Cartwright

Post by xyzzy

Post by houstondan
well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.

it was the 707 prototype, and the Boeing test pilot who did the roll

For those who are interested, go to
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm and check out the section
labelled: "Rolling the Boeing 707 prototype". As you'll hear from the
commentary, the powers-that-be weren't all that impressed ...
D.

It's one of the best things that ever happened to Boeing. That stunt sold
more airplanes than any New York ad agency could even dream of.

[NW_PILOT]

Post by houstondan
well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.
looks to me like you're learning how to actually fly that thing. good
for you.
dan

Yep, after learning the upset recovery stuff and working very hard at
getting my instrument rating I fell way more comfortable doing things and
going places that I would not have done alone with out an instructor in the
right seat. Now I know if I ever encounter wake turbulence. I what to do and
what to expect and that spins in a 150 are nothing to be feared and are very
simple to recover from. Don't know if this makes me safer or more dangerous?
One thing I do know for sure, it has made me more confident!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Post by NW_PILOT
Now I know if I ever encounter wake turbulence. I what to do and
what to expect and that spins in a 150 are nothing to be feared and are very
simple to recover from. Don't know if this makes me safer or more dangerous?
One thing I do know for sure, it has made me more confident!

As long as it doesn't make you *too* confident. The C-150 wasn't really built
for what you're doing with it. You may get away with it for a while but it'll
probably bite you if you continue enough times.

[Ed H]

I won't lecture you on being an idiot, because you've probably gotten plenty
of that. I will tell you this: if you like the effect of learning about
unusual attitudes, then go do it right. Find someone with a Citabria or
Decathlon, chute up, and do the real deal in an airplane built for it. A
few hours of dual will have you doing spins, loops, rolls, hammerheads,
inverted flight, all of it. 5 hours of dual is usually enough to get you
ready to do it on your own. You'll find out that is nothing to be feared
either, and is actually a hell of a lot of fun. And you'll really be
confident (and competent) at true unusual attitudes. Who knows, you might
even join the IAC and start competing. That's how all of us got started.
But be careful, it's addicting.

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by houstondan
well, nw, i seem to remember the wings channel, now defunct, running a
piece every 2 minutes for years about a guy who was so proud of daddy
for barrel rolling an airliner the size of the town i grew up in over a
crowd.
looks to me like you're learning how to actually fly that thing. good
for you.
dan

Yep, after learning the upset recovery stuff and working very hard at
getting my instrument rating I fell way more comfortable doing things and
going places that I would not have done alone with out an instructor in the
right seat. Now I know if I ever encounter wake turbulence. I what to do and
what to expect and that spins in a 150 are nothing to be feared and are very
simple to recover from. Don't know if this makes me safer or more dangerous?
One thing I do know for sure, it has made me more confident!

[Smutny]

The Aerobat has thicker skins and 172 sized wing struts for strength.
The extra strength is *not* for when you do aerobatics correctly, but
for when you screw them up.

We already have limited areas here in the NW to fly aerobatics. Do not
become a statistic and make that even harder for the rest of the
aerobatic community here to find places to practice and compete.

Get a proper aerobatic instructor and an aerobatic airplane if you are
going to take part in this activity. If you need help finding one, feel
free to ask. I can point you to a few in the area.

Aerobatics is addicting and the most fun you can have in an airplane
with your pants on. But it must be done properly, safely and within the
limitations of the equipment.

-j-

[Fly]

Post by NW_PILOT
Yes nose down to 120 pitch up about 20 to 40 degrees to about 97 or what
ever your maneuvering speed is full deflection to the right or left right is
easier once you see the ground cut the power to idle roll ailerons netural
when right side up.

I generally keep my opinion to myself when someone writes about their
piloting skills.
There are many styles out there.

I vaguely remember some thread of this NW-pilot about x-country flight some
months ago and now this.
My vote says this NW-pilot is a TROLL.

But then again, maybe not if he actually had a video of the roll.

If he is real and sincere and actually paid for recovery upset training I
say "dude go get you money back."

Your description of your roll would probably have you end up in the ground
if done from low level. and only a dumbass or worse would believe it.

Kent OK

[NW_PILOT]

Post by Fly

Post by NW_PILOT
Yes nose down to 120 pitch up about 20 to 40 degrees to about 97 or what
ever your maneuvering speed is full deflection to the right or left

right

Post by Fly
is

Post by NW_PILOT
easier once you see the ground cut the power to idle roll ailerons netural
when right side up.

I generally keep my opinion to myself when someone writes about their
piloting skills.
There are many styles out there.
I vaguely remember some thread of this NW-pilot about x-country flight some
months ago and now this.
My vote says this NW-pilot is a TROLL.

Nope not a TROLL and i cancled that x-country flight becuse the weather
forcast was beyond my liking. I will attempt that x-country flight again
when the weather is forcast to be better and I have the time.

Post by Fly
But then again, maybe not if he actually had a video of the roll.
If he is real and sincere and actually paid for recovery upset training I
say "dude go get you money back."
Your description of your roll would probably have you end up in the ground
if done from low level. and only a dumbass or worse would believe it.
Kent OK

Said nothing about being low level.

[xyzzy]

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by Fly

Post by NW_PILOT
Yes nose down to 120 pitch up about 20 to 40 degrees to about 97 or what
ever your maneuvering speed is full deflection to the right or left

right

Post by Fly
is

Post by NW_PILOT
easier once you see the ground cut the power to idle roll ailerons

netural

Post by Fly

Post by NW_PILOT
when right side up.

I generally keep my opinion to myself when someone writes about their
piloting skills.
There are many styles out there.
I vaguely remember some thread of this NW-pilot about x-country flight

some

Post by Fly
months ago and now this.
My vote says this NW-pilot is a TROLL.

Nope not a TROLL and i cancled that x-country flight becuse the weather
forcast was beyond my liking. I will attempt that x-country flight again
when the weather is forcast to be better and I have the time.

I think he was referring to your night cross country over mountains in
your 150.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aviation.ifr/browse_frm/thread/4262643782abb5d0/4d58774b8c5bc733?q=group:rec.aviation.owning+author:NW_PILOT&rnum=4&hl=en#4d58774b8c5bc733

OR

http://tinyurl.com/co7qb

[NW_PILOT]

Post by xyzzy
I think he was referring to your night cross country over mountains in
your 150.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aviation.ifr/browse_frm/thread/4262643782abb5d0/4d58774b8c5bc733?q=group:rec.aviation.owning+author:NW_PILOT&rnum=4&hl=en#4d58774b8c5bc733

Post by xyzzy
OR
http://tinyurl.com/co7qb

Ohh that flight was fun.

[Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube]

Post by NW_PILOT
Ohh that flight was fun.

You are a fucking idiot and hope when you kill yourself in an airplane,
that you die alone.

[W P Dixon]

Such harsh words , and from a feeding tube no less!!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mechanic

Post by Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube

Post by NW_PILOT
Ohh that flight was fun.

You are a fucking idiot and hope when you kill yourself in an airplane,
that you die alone.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Post by W P Dixon

Post by NW_PILOT
Ohh that flight was fun.

You are a *BLEEP*ing idiot and hope when you kill yourself in an airplane,
that you die alone.

Such harsh words , and from a feeding tube no less!!!!

Reads like a novel: "you die alone", in the dark (or is that "dork"?),
in a rainstorm. And in Tubes case in San Francisco or in NW's case in
Portland...

[Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube]

Post by Darrel Toepfer

Post by W P Dixon

Post by Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube

Post by NW_PILOT
Ohh that flight was fun.

You are a fucking idiot and hope when you kill yourself in an airplane,
that you die alone.

Such harsh words , and from a feeding tube no less!!!!

Reads like a novel: "you die alone", in the dark (or is that "dork"?),
in a rainstorm. And in Tubes case in San Francisco or in NW's case in
Portland...

Fixed that first quote for you. I hope children are reading.

Either way, NW_pilot is an idiot and I dearly hope he only kills himself
when he goes.

NW_Pilot is the type of pilot who makes the rest of us look bad when he
dies.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Post by Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube
Fixed that first quote for you. I hope children are reading.
Either way, NW_pilot is an idiot and I dearly hope he only kills himself
when he goes.
NW_Pilot is the type of pilot who makes the rest of us look bad when he
dies.

Yeah, uhuh, right... *PLONK*

[Casey Wilson]

Post by Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube

Post by NW_PILOT
Ohh that flight was fun.

You are a

PLONK!!!!

[John Galban]

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll

http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

Cool video. It's probably not the smartest thing in the world to
post a video of yourself performing an aerobatic manuever in a plane
that is not approved for such things. You're just asking for trouble.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[private]

Is there any way to know this was a non aerobat if we were not told?

Blue skies to all

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll

http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi
Cool video. It's probably not the smartest thing in the world to
post a video of yourself performing an aerobatic manuever in a plane
that is not approved for such things. You're just asking for trouble.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Byron J. Covey]

If it were an Aerobat, you would see the door release pull rings on the door
posts.


BJC

Post by private
Is there any way to know this was a non aerobat if we were not told?
Blue skies to all

Post by NW_PILOT

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll

http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi
Cool video. It's probably not the smartest thing in the world to
post a video of yourself performing an aerobatic manuever in a plane
that is not approved for such things. You're just asking for trouble.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jack Allison]

Post by NW_PILOT
It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

...which is another link in a future accident chain. Break the chain
man...for some acro, go out in a real aerobatic aircraft with an
instructor. It's a gas and a heck of a lot safer than in a stock C-150.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jon Kraus]

Hey Jack - when you going to give up the "Student Arrow Owner" sig line?
:-)

JK

Post by Jack Allison

Post by NW_PILOT
It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

...which is another link in a future accident chain. Break the chain
man...for some acro, go out in a real aerobatic aircraft with an
instructor. It's a gas and a heck of a lot safer than in a stock C-150.

[Jack Allison]

Post by Jon Kraus
Hey Jack - when you going to give up the "Student Arrow Owner" sig line?
:-)

Hmmm, good question Jon. How long does it take to graduate from Student
ownership status? Heck, I feel like I'm still a student pilot in the
plane, let alone with the ownership end of things.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T (Yes Jon, still!) :-)

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jon Kraus]

I quit using it after my 20 hours for insurance was up. We are just
finishing up our first annual in 43H. 6 AMU's ouch!!

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201

Post by Jack Allison

Post by Jon Kraus
Hey Jack - when you going to give up the "Student Arrow Owner" sig
line? :-)

Hmmm, good question Jon. How long does it take to graduate from Student
ownership status? Heck, I feel like I'm still a student pilot in the
plane, let alone with the ownership end of things.

[Jack Allison]

Post by Jon Kraus
I quit using it after my 20 hours for insurance was up. We are just
finishing up our first annual in 43H. 6 AMU's ouch!!

Ah...thanks for the clarification. I still have 5.6 to log before I hit
my 20 hours. The annual thing and how many AMUs will have to wait
another year.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Beckman]

Post by Jon Kraus
Hey Jack - when you going to give up the "Student Arrow Owner" sig line?
:-)
JK

Remember: A Good Owner Is Always Learning (to spend money in ways he/she
couldn't have dreamed of in their wildest imagination...)

<g,d,r>

Jay

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jay Beckman
Remember: A Good Owner Is Always Learning (to spend money in ways he/she
couldn't have dreamed of in their wildest imagination...)

Tell me about it. I'm in the midst of an engine overhaul and the
number of "extras" that have come up are pushing the price tag very
close to what I paid for the whole airplane 11 years ago.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Beckman]

Post by Jay Beckman

Post by Jay Beckman
Remember: A Good Owner Is Always Learning (to spend money in ways

he/she

Post by Jay Beckman
couldn't have dreamed of in their wildest imagination...)

Tell me about it. I'm in the midst of an engine overhaul and the
number of "extras" that have come up are pushing the price tag very
close to what I paid for the whole airplane 11 years ago.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

John,

Who's doing the work for you?

Jay

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jay Beckman
John,
Who's doing the work for you?

Chandler Aviation is doing the R&R and installing a new prop, engine
monitor and digital tach. Aircraft Engine Specialists (Varga) at CHD
is performing a Superior Millenium overhaul on the engine.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Mark Hansen]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Jay Beckman
John,
Who's doing the work for you?

Chandler Aviation is doing the R&R and installing a new prop, engine
monitor and digital tach. Aircraft Engine Specialists (Varga) at CHD
is performing a Superior Millenium overhaul on the engine.

Wow, what a great name for an overhaul. Do you suppose they are
making a promise regarding the new TBO?

Naw... I guess not; after all, they'd be reducing their repeate
customer base ;-)

Post by j***@hotmail.com
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Montblack]

("Jon Kraus" wrote)

Post by Jon Kraus
Hey Jack - when you going to give up the "Student Arrow Owner" sig line?

When he starts signing off simply as Jack-O <g>

How's the instrument checkride before OSH looking? Possible?


Montblack

[Jack Allison]

Post by Montblack
How's the instrument checkride before OSH looking? Possible?

Hmmm, possible yes, probable...that's another question. Am in the midst
of evaluating the financial end of things to answer this very question.
There's something about having just bought a 1/3 share of an Arrow
that has changed the equation a bit. In other words, I have a much
smaller pile of money right now. I'm planning to log a couple hours
instrument time with my current instructor and get his take on options
for me to proceed. I may have to put off serious instrument training
for another 6 months or so. No complaints though since I'm now "saving"
money flying my own plane. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah....I crack
myself up sometimes :-)

Never fear...LHM-IOW followed by IOW-OSH VFR can be done (provided the
weather cooperates).
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Dave]

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

A pretty stupid thing to do really. Done correctly the aeroplane
probably won't even notice it's being rolled BUT it displays the wrong
attitude in the pilot. Any fool can fly an aileron roll in a
non-aerobatic aircraft, it doesn't require any real skill; but if we're
going to ignore the regs and the manufacturers specification on this
aspect then maybe next time you could exceed Vne a little bit, or fly
slightly overweight or just outside the CG range, or...? Most of the
time you'll probably get away with it but... Consider the next person to
fly the aircraft, or the size of your margins if it goes wrong.

Do yourself (and the rest of the GA fraternity) a favour, learn
aerobatics in an aircraft that's certificated for it and with an
aerobatic instructor.

Dave S (aero instructor)

[OtisWinslow]

Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor judgement. I
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got the copy
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi

[Michael]

Post by OtisWinslow
Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor

judgement. I

Post by OtisWinslow
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got the copy
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

So tell me - do you also turn in people for speeding? Not coming to a
full stop when making a right turn on red? Or maybe you just reserve
it for those who cut you off? Or drag race?

When you obey ALL the regulations ALL the time (in your car as well as
your airplane) you can consider turning other people in. Otherwise
it's the height of hypocrisy.

BTW - at my home field all kinds of non-aerobatic airplanes are rolled,
ranging from C-150's all the way up to Barons. It's done by all kinds
of pilots, ranging from private pilots with a couple hundred hours to
airline captains with 10,000+ hours, and at least one former FSDO ops
inspector. For all that this goes on with great regularity, the only
airplane at our field that ever had a structural failure was a
Reims-Cessna Aerobat.

None of this is to say that there's not an increase in risk involved.
Of course there's an increased risk involved, just like there's an
increased risk involved in speeding, making turns on red without coming
to a full stop, or drag racing. Further, as in all these cases, the
risk isn't inherent in executing the maneuver correctly, but in
botching it or having the unexpected occur. Given that having the
unexpected occur is way more likely doing 75 in a 65 zone on the
highway, and further that getting someone else hurt is way more likely
on the highway than in a C-150, I have to ask why you feel it's
reasonable to turn this guy in to the FSDO but not to copy license
plate numbers of speeders and turn them in.

Michael

[houstondan]

Post by OtisWinslow

Post by OtisWinslow
Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor

judgement. I

Post by OtisWinslow
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got

the

Post by OtisWinslow
copy

Post by OtisWinslow
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

So tell me - do you also turn in people for speeding? Not coming to a
full stop when making a right turn on red? Or maybe you just reserve
it for those who cut you off? Or drag race?

I have to ask why you feel it's

Post by OtisWinslow
reasonable to turn this guy in to the FSDO but not to copy license
plate numbers of speeders and turn them in.
Michael

i hate to admit that i made a post that said a lot of the same things
michael did but then chickened out and pulled it down. shoulda left it
up and stood the heat. shame on me.



dan

[Jim]

On 29 Apr 2005 11:42:16 -0700, "Michael"

Post by OtisWinslow

Post by OtisWinslow
Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor

judgement. I

Post by OtisWinslow
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got the

copy

Post by OtisWinslow
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

So tell me - do you also turn in people for speeding? Not coming to a
full stop when making a right turn on red? Or maybe you just reserve
it for those who cut you off? Or drag race?
When you obey ALL the regulations ALL the time (in your car as well as
your airplane) you can consider turning other people in. Otherwise
it's the height of hypocrisy.
BTW - at my home field all kinds of non-aerobatic airplanes are rolled,
ranging from C-150's all the way up to Barons. It's done by all kinds
of pilots, ranging from private pilots with a couple hundred hours to
airline captains with 10,000+ hours, and at least one former FSDO ops
inspector. For all that this goes on with great regularity, the only
airplane at our field that ever had a structural failure was a
Reims-Cessna Aerobat.
None of this is to say that there's not an increase in risk involved.
Of course there's an increased risk involved, just like there's an
increased risk involved in speeding, making turns on red without coming
to a full stop, or drag racing. Further, as in all these cases, the
risk isn't inherent in executing the maneuver correctly, but in
botching it or having the unexpected occur. Given that having the
unexpected occur is way more likely doing 75 in a 65 zone on the
highway, and further that getting someone else hurt is way more likely
on the highway than in a C-150, I have to ask why you feel it's
reasonable to turn this guy in to the FSDO but not to copy license
plate numbers of speeders and turn them in.
Michael

I find this troubling. I agree with the notion that there are
similarities of some sort between, on the one hand, speeding, rolling
turns against a red light and drag racing (on the street), and on the
other hand, flying an aircraft outside its recommended envelope.
The similarities, in my view, are irresponsibility, thoughtlessness
and empulsivity -- at least for normal mortals. These are qualities
one might not be surprised to find in the behavior of a teenage boy
perhaps (such as me when I was a teenager).

[Morgans]

Post by OtisWinslow

Post by OtisWinslow
Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor

judgement. I

Post by OtisWinslow
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got the

copy

Post by OtisWinslow
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

So tell me - do you also turn in people for speeding? Not coming to a
full stop when making a right turn on red? Or maybe you just reserve
it for those who cut you off? Or drag race?
When you obey ALL the regulations ALL the time (in your car as well as
your airplane) you can consider turning other people in. Otherwise
it's the height of hypocrisy.

Perhaps getting raked over the coals will help his judgment in the future.

Our society has a lot of problems, because no one wants to squeal on the
wrong do-er. Think about everyone staying silent about rule breakers, the
next time someone takes away some of your rights by enacting a new rule or
regulation.

If you think it never happens, you are wrong; it happens all of the time.

[Robert Chambers]

He probably doesn't have any friends, even FSDO ops inspectors. He
turned them all in long ago for jaywalking, littering, speeding, etc.

Post by Morgans

Post by OtisWinslow

Post by OtisWinslow
Well Steven .. I think it's a dumb thing to do and show's poor

judgement. I

Post by OtisWinslow
noticed
you took the video off the web site. Fortunately not before I got the

copy

Post by OtisWinslow
to email
to a friend of mine who's a FSDO Ops inspector.

So tell me - do you also turn in people for speeding? Not coming to a
full stop when making a right turn on red? Or maybe you just reserve
it for those who cut you off? Or drag race?
When you obey ALL the regulations ALL the time (in your car as well as
your airplane) you can consider turning other people in. Otherwise
it's the height of hypocrisy.

Perhaps getting raked over the coals will help his judgment in the future.
Our society has a lot of problems, because no one wants to squeal on the
wrong do-er. Think about everyone staying silent about rule breakers, the
next time someone takes away some of your rights by enacting a new rule or
regulation.
If you think it never happens, you are wrong; it happens all of the time.

[Mal]

Idiot

Post by NW_PILOT
This video was taken by my instructor with my digital cam so its poor
quality, It's my first unassissted roll http://www.warflying.net/roll.avi