How to pass a checkride 101

[Dudley Henriques]

How To Pass A Checkride 101
Dudley Henriques CFI Retired

(I get a fair amount of back channel email on flight instruction
issues and this issue has come up quite a lot lately. I'm reposting
this in the hope some student might find it useful.)



Let's talk checkrides for a moment shall we? It's an interesting and
important issue to all of us who fly, and I believe it deserves some
special
attention.

I've noticed through the years that this issue comes up many times
when
pilots get together to talk shop, and it's been an issue on the
student
newsgroup as well .It's an issue that all of us, from our pre-solo
checks
through our ATP route checks have to deal with sooner or later if we
intend
to remain pilots. We'll have phase checks, flight tests, checkout
flights,
and continuing proficiency checks to deal with sooner or later in our
careers. I've been both taking and giving checkrides in airplanes for
about
fifty years now, and I believe I've learned a few things about both
ends of
the spectrum. With your indulgence, I'd like to pass some of what I've
learned on to you, especially those of you just starting out on your
long
aviation journey,

Let's concentrate on the flight test check flight for a Private
Certificate
as an example. I choose this scenario because it's really the first
"serious" flight check you will receive as a pilot, and as such, many
have a
tendency to bring unneeded fear and apprehension into this equation.
I'd
like to address these possible fears and apprehensions, and perhaps
steer
you into a proper state of mind for taking on this all important
checkride.....the one you have worked so long and hard to pass!

Lets talk for a moment about attitude, then we'll take a short look at
the
checkride itself, and how you should interface with the examiner
during the
test. You will notice immediately that I am shying completely away
from
maneuver technicalities and maneuver discussion. I think we can all
assume
that prior to taking a checkflight for a certificate that you have
been
properly trained and recommended for the flight test. What I'm getting
at
here is above and beyond this. It concerns the attitude and mental
preparation you take with you when you get into the airplane with the
check
pilot or examiner.

First, and this is probably the most important single factor involved
in a
flight test; RELAX! Realize that the examiner doesn't expect you to be
perfect; the examiner expects you to be SAFE!!!!! Now, what does this
mean
to you? You should arrive for the test as prepared as possible. This
doesn't
mean you have to know the answer to every question you will be asked.
It
means that if you don't know the answer, you DO know exactly where to
find
it. It also means you should expect to make mistakes.This is extremely
important so remember it; the examiner EXPECTS you to make mistakes.
In
fact, the examiner WANTS you to make mistakes so he/she can
immediately see
if you can both recognize that you have made that mistake, and as well
CORRECT the mistake within safe parameters.

Now this point deserves a bit more attention, so listen up a moment
here.
Why are mistakes important to an examiner? Here's the answer. The
examiner
is constantly asking him/herself all through your flight, "How safe is
this
applicant" "How would this applicant react to this or that if I wasn't
here?" These are important and pertinent questions. How does the
examiner
deal with this? ERROR ANALYSIS!!! That's how! There is absolutely no
better
way to evaluate a pilot in flight than allowing that pilot to fly into
an
error; then view EXACTLY how long it takes for the pilot to recognize
that
error, and EXACTLY how long it takes to initiate corrective action,
and most
importantly, EXACTLY what that corrective action is!!! What I have
described
here is not only what a good examiner is doing, but also the formula
for
teaching someone to fly an airplane properly. A good instructor NEVER
rides
the controls on a student. A good instructor knows EXACTLY how far to
allow
the student into an error and makes every effort to talk the student
through
a correction without grabbing control from the student. Doing this
correctly
is the mark of both a good CFI, and a good checkpilot......so remember
this.
Back to the examiner; they want to observe your errors, so if you make
them,
and you most certainly will make them, face the error immediately;
state the
error; and begin correction immediately. Nothing impresses an examiner
more
than a pilot who faces a mistake immediately by recognition and
correction.
Remember this!
You will probably discover somewhere in any check flight that the
pilot
giving you the check does things a bit differently than you do, or how
you
were taught to do it. In almost every instance, you will find that you
can
do it BOTH ways correctly, so demonstrate it as the examiner suggests.
In closing, let me say that it really all boils down to keeping
calm.....being relaxed......and giving the examiner a SAFE, HONEST,
flight.
Recognize those errors.....correct them immediately....and when in
doubt....take the SAFE option.
Best of luck to all of you on your future check flights!!! :-))))

Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

[Maxwell]

Post by Dudley Henriques
How To Pass A Checkride 101

Oh my God, here we go again.

It's the Dumley Henriques Show, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Jim Logajan]

Post by Maxwell
Oh my God,

No need to invoke your dieties. All you have to do is to write equally
relevant and useful posts.

[Mike Ash]

In article

Post by Dudley Henriques
(I get a fair amount of back channel email on flight instruction
issues and this issue has come up quite a lot lately. I'm reposting
this in the hope some student might find it useful.)

I just wanted to state my appreciation for this. Good stuff, and stated
well. Thanks for posting it.

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Mike Ash
In article

Post by Dudley Henriques
(I get a fair amount of back channel email on flight instruction
issues and this issue has come up quite a lot lately. I'm reposting
this in the hope some student might find it useful.)

I just wanted to state my appreciation for this. Good stuff, and stated
well. Thanks for posting it.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

Thank you Mike. Appreciate both the thought and your time to post it.
Dudley

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Post by Mike Ash
In article

One thing I have seen come up recently in a number of different groups is
the examiner using "distractions" and sometimes suggesting that the pilot
do something that is pushing the edge of safe operation to see if the pilot
is aware enough to say "no" - Thinking back to my experience as a student,
I would have just done what was asked (and kept my worries to myself) - I
think the proper thing to do is to remember at this point, you are no
longer a "student" you are the PIC and have the responsibility for making
the "no-go" decisions - and the examiner could be expecting you to do
exactly that.

[Mike Ash]

Post by Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
One thing I have seen come up recently in a number of different groups is
the examiner using "distractions" and sometimes suggesting that the pilot
do something that is pushing the edge of safe operation to see if the pilot
is aware enough to say "no" - Thinking back to my experience as a student,
I would have just done what was asked (and kept my worries to myself) - I
think the proper thing to do is to remember at this point, you are no
longer a "student" you are the PIC and have the responsibility for making
the "no-go" decisions - and the examiner could be expecting you to do
exactly that.

Yep, they don't *want* you to just do whatever they tell you. Obviously
if you're going for your commercial or something then this should be
well past you, but it's certainly important for the private.

Of course it doesn't always work out that way, and can be important
beyond that too. I recall when a friend of mine was training for his
glider add-on rating. He's an experienced airline pilot, glider tow
pilot, instructor, sharp guy, all that. He was debriefing a flight with
the instructor. Their plan had been to tow to 3,000ft but they went well
past that before he finally released. Why? He was waiting for the
instructor to tell him to release, and the instructor was waiting for
him to do it on his own. He was preparing for his checkride so he was
well past the point where he was able to manage his own flights. If it
can happen to him then I suppose it can happen to just about anybody.

I recall when I first started learning to fly, in Cessnas many years
ago, when obviously I was much younger. I had this problem in spades.
I'd do anything the instructor told me to do, even if it was dumb, and
if he didn't prompt me I wouldn't do it. The end result wasn't all that
pleasant for me and probably not that great for the instructor either.
Come forward about ten years when I got back into flying with gliders,
and I was a lot more confident and take-charge which made it a much
better experience, and just two months later I was sent up solo.

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
One thing I have seen come up recently in a number of different groups is
the examiner using "distractions" and sometimes suggesting that the pilot
do something that is pushing the edge of safe operation to see if the pilot
is aware enough to say "no" - Thinking back to my experience as a student,
I would have just done what was asked (and kept my worries to myself) - I
think the proper thing to do is to remember at this point, you are no
longer a "student" you are the PIC and have the responsibility for making
the "no-go" decisions - and the examiner could be expecting you to do
exactly that.

Yep, they don't *want* you to just do whatever they tell you. Obviously
if you're going for your commercial or something then this should be
well past you, but it's certainly important for the private.
Of course it doesn't always work out that way, and can be important
beyond that too. I recall when a friend of mine was training for his
glider add-on rating. He's an experienced airline pilot, glider tow
pilot, instructor, sharp guy, all that. He was debriefing a flight with
the instructor. Their plan had been to tow to 3,000ft but they went well
past that before he finally released. Why? He was waiting for the
instructor to tell him to release, and the instructor was waiting for
him to do it on his own. He was preparing for his checkride so he was
well past the point where he was able to manage his own flights. If it
can happen to him then I suppose it can happen to just about anybody.
I recall when I first started learning to fly, in Cessnas many years
ago, when obviously I was much younger. I had this problem in spades.
I'd do anything the instructor told me to do, even if it was dumb, and
if he didn't prompt me I wouldn't do it. The end result wasn't all that
pleasant for me and probably not that great for the instructor either.
Come forward about ten years when I got back into flying with gliders,
and I was a lot more confident and take-charge which made it a much
better experience, and just two months later I was sent up solo.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

It's interesting sometimes, to explore some differences between
instructing as a CFI and giving check flights as a CFI as the
technique does vary a bit if you analyze it from an objective
viewpoint.
In the Instruction mode, there are many in-flight situations
(perfectly normal) where a good instructor will demonstrate something
as a negative by allowing the student to progress into a specific
situation that under normal circumstances should be avoided.
This is a controlled situation by the CFI and done completely in a
safe environment classified as a "teaching environment".
In these "situations" it is quite common for "mixups" to occur where
the student is performing something with the aircraft contrary to the
student's preconceived understanding and expected outcome.
The result of such situations should produce an outcome that changes
or alters the student's preconception of that expected outcome to
produce a new and better understanding and a new expected outcome.

On the check flight side of the equation, you are now in a totally
different environment. The objective now is to ascertain a specific
level of competence that will allow safe operation of the aircraft.
In order to make this decision, the check pilot is now placed in the
role of observer as opposed to a teacher. The reason for this is that
if the check pilot departs from the observer role and enters a
teaching role, the pilot being checked can and most certainly will
alter whatever it was the pilot would normally do or have done with
the airplane to meet what is being demonstrated or taught at that
moment.
The result can easily become a teaching situation that is not
optimized as a check flgiht.
The pilot being checked performs as directed but less than what is
needed to make a qualified judgment on the pilot's knowledge and
abilities can easily result.

In the check pilot mode, it is imperative that a thorough
understanding of EXACTLY what will be expected from the pilot being
checked be completely understood before the flight takes place.
This doesn't mean the check pilot has to be rigid. In fact, most good
check pilots are NOT rigid. In this environment you want a relaxed
applicant with a thorough understanding of what will be expected and
nothing else.
During the flight, using any "technique" that attempts to trick the
applicant into doing something that would fail the applicant is
something I personally would discourage when advising check pilots.
It's important here to differentiate between a verbal instruction
causing an act that fails the applicant and an instruction from the
check pilot that offers the applicant a CHOICE of action!! There is
nothing wrong with offering an applicant a choice of action and indeed
in my opinion, is one of the most useful tools of any good check
pilot.
If check pilots brief thoroughly and perform correctly, all necessary
information can be obtained without "tricking" the applicant into
doing something that fails the flight check.
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

Post by Mike Ash
In article

One thing I have seen come up recently in a number of different groups is
the examiner using "distractions" and sometimes suggesting that the pilot
do something that is pushing the edge of safe operation to see if the pilot
is aware enough to say "no" - Thinking back to my experience as a student,
I would have just done what was asked (and kept my worries to myself) - I
think the proper thing to do is to remember at this point, you are no
longer a "student" you are the PIC and have the responsibility for making
the "no-go" decisions - and the examiner could be expecting you to do
exactly that.
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Flight checks come in different packages of course and usually fall
into two very distinct categories; the first being a structured check
where governing authority has dictated a strict set of tasks that must
be accomplished to pre-set standards.

The second type of flight check involves a less standardized and
structured format where the check pilot has some degree of latitude in
determining what is covered and how it's covered.

Personally, using either format, I would never use or advocate a
"trick" format be used by a check pilot in performing a flight check;
that "trick" being defined as a deliberate attempt to have a pilot
being checked perform an unsafe act BY DIRECT VERBAL INSTRUCTION from
the check pilot to see if the pilot will perform the act as
instructed.

I have no doubt at all that this type of thing is done, as I've seen
it done several times myself. I simply don't advocate this type of
procedure when giving check flights.

This having been said, I would totally agree that pilots taking flight
checks be aware that there are check pilots who do this and to be on
guard.

My general procedure in advising pilots on procedure when giving check
flights is to never directly coerce a pilot BY DIRECT VERBAL
INSTRUCTION into doing something with the airplane they wouldn't do
unless directly instructed to do so by the pilot giving the flight
test. Any check pilot worth the title should be more than able to
ascertain a pilot's skill levels, habit patterns, and judgment without
a direct attempt to "trick" the pilot into doing something unsafe.

Dudley Henriques

[Maxwell]

"Dudley Henriques" <***@rcn.com> wrote in message news:ded0c58e-e2b0-439d-8460-***@r13g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...

Cool Dumley, you have a brand new lineup of cronies. You can once more
rattle your head to your hearts content.

[Mike Ash]

Post by Maxwell
Cool Dumley, you have a brand new lineup of cronies. You can once more
rattle your head to your hearts content.

Before I killfile you, let me just say this: if you aren't contributing
anything, and you clearly are not, why bother? Go away, and troll
somewhere else.

[C Gattman]

On May 1, 7:54 pm, Dudley Henriques <***@rcn.com> wrote:
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.

Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand. (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)

It helps to know which you're getting into so you can prepare your
knowledge resources and expectations accordingly. One guy's a piece of
cake but if you can't decode at least the first half of a METAR or
explain your weight and balance data you're done. When he stops
talking during the checkride, you're in trouble. With another
examiner, just because he seems to be yelling at you doesn't mean
you're not doing well, and he doesn't expect you to know the answers
to trick questions; he just wants to see how you react.

If you know what to expect and -why- to expect it, you're a better
pilot for it. These days, you better expect to discuss the special
emphasis areas like CFIT, situational awareness collision and runway
incursion avoidance.

Thanks again. Looking forward to the flying season!

Chris Gattman
CFI-ASEL-IA

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by C Gattman
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.
Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)
It helps to know which you're getting into so you can prepare your
knowledge resources and expectations accordingly. One guy's a piece of
cake but if you can't decode at least the first half of a METAR or
explain your weight and balance data you're done. When he stops
talking during the checkride, you're in trouble. With another
examiner, just because he seems to be yelling at you doesn't mean
you're not doing well, and he doesn't expect you to know the answers
to trick questions; he just wants to see how you react.
If you know what to expect and -why- to expect it, you're a better
pilot for it.   These days, you better expect to discuss the special
emphasis areas like CFIT, situational awareness collision and runway
incursion avoidance.
Thanks again.  Looking forward to the flying season!
Chris Gattman
CFI-ASEL-IA

Good info. Have fun this "season".
-Dudley

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 4 May 2009 15:30:59 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Post by C Gattman
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.
Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)
It helps to know which you're getting into so you can prepare your
knowledge resources and expectations accordingly. One guy's a piece of
cake but if you can't decode at least the first half of a METAR or
explain your weight and balance data you're done. When he stops
talking during the checkride, you're in trouble. With another
examiner, just because he seems to be yelling at you doesn't mean
you're not doing well, and he doesn't expect you to know the answers
to trick questions; he just wants to see how you react.
If you know what to expect and -why- to expect it, you're a better
pilot for it.   These days, you better expect to discuss the special
emphasis areas like CFIT, situational awareness collision and runway
incursion avoidance.
Thanks again.  Looking forward to the flying season!
Chris Gattman
CFI-ASEL-IA

Good info. Have fun this "season".

When they yell at me I yell right back!
(And I have control of the audio gain)<:-))

Post by Dudley Henriques
-Dudley

Two BP checks to go.<fingers crossed>
Every thing else passed.

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Mon, 4 May 2009 15:30:59 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Post by C Gattman
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.
Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)
It helps to know which you're getting into so you can prepare your
knowledge resources and expectations accordingly. One guy's a piece of
cake but if you can't decode at least the first half of a METAR or
explain your weight and balance data you're done. When he stops
talking during the checkride, you're in trouble. With another
examiner, just because he seems to be yelling at you doesn't mean
you're not doing well, and he doesn't expect you to know the answers
to trick questions; he just wants to see how you react.
If you know what to expect and -why- to expect it, you're a better
pilot for it.   These days, you better expect to discuss the special
emphasis areas like CFIT, situational awareness collision and runway
incursion avoidance.
Thanks again.  Looking forward to the flying season!
Chris Gattman
CFI-ASEL-IA

Good info. Have fun this "season".

When they yell at me I yell right back!
(And I have control of the audio gain)<:-))

Post by Dudley Henriques
-Dudley

Two BP checks to go.<fingers crossed>
Every thing else passed.

GREAT news!!!! Just remember; stay off Usenet for two days before the
tests. Helps keep the BP down :-)))))))))
Dudley

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 9 May 2009 20:28:45 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Post by Roger (K8RI)
On Mon, 4 May 2009 15:30:59 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Post by C Gattman
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.
Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)
It helps to know which you're getting into so you can prepare your
knowledge resources and expectations accordingly. One guy's a piece of
cake but if you can't decode at least the first half of a METAR or
explain your weight and balance data you're done. When he stops
talking during the checkride, you're in trouble. With another
examiner, just because he seems to be yelling at you doesn't mean
you're not doing well, and he doesn't expect you to know the answers
to trick questions; he just wants to see how you react.
If you know what to expect and -why- to expect it, you're a better
pilot for it.   These days, you better expect to discuss the special
emphasis areas like CFIT, situational awareness collision and runway
incursion avoidance.
Thanks again.  Looking forward to the flying season!
Chris Gattman
CFI-ASEL-IA

Good info. Have fun this "season".

When they yell at me I yell right back!
(And I have control of the audio gain)<:-))

Post by Dudley Henriques
-Dudley

Two BP checks to go.<fingers crossed>
Every thing else passed.

GREAT news!!!! Just remember; stay off Usenet for two days before the
tests. Helps keep the BP down :-)))))))))

Thanks, good advice <LOL>
Only when the BP checks are done will I start getting excited.

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley

[Stealth Pilot]

Post by C Gattman
[snip for brevity]

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
CFI Retired

Thanks, Dudley.
Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best
three hours of instruction the applicant has ever had to a four hours
of trick questions and reprimand. (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)

what a load of crap all this has become.

an ICAO recognised competent registered pilot subjected to "3 hours of
instruction".
what ego trips you fuckwit instructors are on these days.

truely. take a good look at yourselves.
you instruct the student to his pilot's licence and sign him off for
independent solo operation.
then every two years you go through this ego trip of reinstructing him
for hours.

if I was looking at this scene objectively I'd say that your original
and subsequent instruction was incompetent. hence the need to repeat
it every few years.

If I was subjected to "4 hours of trick questions and reprimand" I'd
land the aircraft somewhere remote and smack the guys head in. ...and
I'm not a violent person.
He'd be walking home naked and without a phone ...to allow him time to
reevaluate his style.

truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

Stealth Pilot

[Mike Ash]

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?

Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

[Stealth Pilot]

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?
Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

that little sig line pretty well casts you as a maroon as does the
content of your post.

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?
Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

Mike,

These posts appear to be forgeries.

FYI.

[Mike Ash]

Post by Mark Hansen

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?
Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

These posts appear to be forgeries.
FYI.

Sad. Well, thanks for informing me.

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?
Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

Mike,
  These posts appear to be forgeries.
FYI.

I can't address the forgery issue, but I would submit that the
information is biased and seriously flawed.
I think we all are aware that a BFR can be a "tour de' force" for a
bad instructor, and all pilots are well advised to seek out good
instructors for a BFR check. Bad instructors giving hours of hassle
and grief to a pilot taking a BFR should be avoided of course. In my
opinion, instructors who do this are easily discovered and indeed can
be avoided. Fortunately, rather than being the norm as the posts
infer, these instructors are well in the minority. Most CFI's
recognize the purpose of a BFR and use the format as it was intended;
as an opportunity to stay up to speed and possibly enhance the pilot's
skill and knowledge levels.

To address the "it's time to do away with the BFR issue"; I would
comment that the entire WORLD flight safety community from student
pilot to Astronaut is set up on a peer review structure that is geared
toward a continuing cross check on every pilot's continued ability to
function in the environment.
So prevalent and important is this cross checking system to flight
safety in the Air Show community that in the United States, the FAA
has recognized it's own lack of knowledge in this pilot specialty and
relinquished authority to license practicing display pilots to the
professional community itself where ALL display pilots are registered
and continually cross checked by the ACES program.
The BFR was designed to be the GA equivalent of the ACES program. It
was designed to HELP pilots, NOT to hassle them!

ANY CFI worth the certificate (and this includes most of us I'm sure)
will NOT use a BFR to hassle a pilot, but rather use it for the
purpose intended; to help the pilot taking the BFR to sharpen their
skills, show them anything that's new and upgraded system wide, and
generally HELP the pilot in any and all ways possible to be a better
pilot!
Dudley Henriques

[Stealth Pilot]

On Tue, 5 May 2009 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Mike,
  These posts appear to be forgeries.
FYI.

I may have responded to a forgery but my post wasnt a forgery.

Post by Dudley Henriques
ANY CFI worth the certificate (and this includes most of us I'm sure)
will NOT use a BFR to hassle a pilot, but rather use it for the
purpose intended; to help the pilot taking the BFR to sharpen their
skills, show them anything that's new and upgraded system wide, and
generally HELP the pilot in any and all ways possible to be a better
pilot!
Dudley Henriques

Dudley if you are a hammer then all the world looks like a nail.

what that means, if you havent understood, is that the experiences of
your flying world dont translate to a need in all the other flying
worlds.
in my country the BFR started out being a circuit or two to check a
pilot's proficiency. it has now morphed into multi hour cross country
checks at huge cost to the pilot. it has achieved no demonstrated
improvement in safety for the private owner.

the complexities of the commercial environment and the airshow
environment do not equate to the simple environment of the typical
private aircraft.

also pronouncements from the FAA do not have god like authority. they
are as much public service time wasters in your country as they are in
mine.

in my country we see retired pilots with thousands of hours
experience still needing to show up to a time building minimum hours
grade 2 instructor for a BFR. often the instructor has not the skills
needed to fly the privately owned aircraft.

your mileage may vary but I'll bet that you havent flown an hour of
solo time in the last year.

Stealth Pilot ....who flies a Wittman W8 Tailwind.

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Stealth Pilot
On Tue, 5 May 2009 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Mike,
  These posts appear to be forgeries.
FYI.

I may have responded to a forgery but my post wasnt a forgery.

Post by Dudley Henriques
ANY CFI worth the certificate (and this includes most of us I'm sure)
will NOT use a BFR to hassle a pilot, but rather use it for the
purpose intended; to help the pilot taking the BFR to sharpen their
skills, show them anything that's new and upgraded system wide, and
generally HELP the pilot in any and all ways possible to be a better
pilot!
Dudley Henriques

Dudley if you are a hammer then all the world looks like a nail.
what that means, if you havent understood, is that the experiences of
your flying world dont translate to a need in all the other flying
worlds.

I see the point you are attempting to make but my post doesn't simply
address the BFR specifically but discusses flight safety generally
which is world wide. Each country has it's own governing authority and
the rules and regulations issue will of course vary accordingly, but
the flight safety issue as I addressed it as a cross check issue is
universal.

Post by Stealth Pilot
in my country the BFR started out being a circuit or two to check a
pilot's proficiency. it has now morphed into multi hour cross country
checks at huge cost to the pilot. it has achieved no demonstrated
improvement in safety for the private owner

Any form of cross check program is only as good or bad as the system
designs it and how it's used by those charged with it's
implementation. No one is arguing that the BFR program is perfect. It
isn't. No cross checking system is perfect. It has flaws and it has
instructors implementing it that don't do it properly. The base
concept that a pilot once trained and licensed is competent to proceed
through a flying career without continious cross checking and
upgrading is flawed. This is why world wide we have cross checking
systems in place like the BFR. Different countries will vary of course
but the basic concept is sound and is accepted universally. It may of
may not be as formalized or structured from one country to the next
but the concept of cross checking has been proven to be sound.
Those using the negatives (and there are negatives as I have said) to
attempt to prove the cross system unsound are using only the
negatives. One can say that most all pilots involved in accidents have
been trained and certificated. Considering this, we don't scrap the
training program.

Post by Stealth Pilot
the complexities of the commercial environment and the airshow
environment do not equate to the simple environment of the typical
private aircraft.

I would disagree, as would anyone seriously involved in flight
instruction and flight safety. The "complexities of the commercial
environment and the air show environment" are nothing else but an
extension of the basics, and it's control of the basics that
constitutes the very essence of flight safety whether its in the GA
environment or the commercial and air show environment.

Post by Stealth Pilot
also pronouncements from the FAA do not have god like authority. they
are as much public service time wasters in your country as they are in
mine

I won't argue with you there my friend. The governing authorities of
every country, and in my experience, ESPECIALLY the FAA, need one hell
of a lot of improvement. They are bloated, and bogged down with many
people best suited for other lines of work :-)
It's toward the improvement of these agencies that many of us involved
in flight safety devote one hell of a lot of our time and effort.

Post by Stealth Pilot
 in my country we see retired pilots with thousands of hours
experience still needing to show up to a time building minimum hours
grade 2 instructor for a BFR. often the instructor has not the skills
needed to fly the privately owned aircraft.

I don't know how many times I've heard this argument from high time
pilots who have had bad experiences with instructors :-) If your
argument is that because you have thousands of hours you don't need to
be reviewed you are mistaken. On the other hand no good pilot with
solid experience likes to climb into an airplane with a young
inexperienced CFI and be "graded". I understand this situation well
and indeed deal with it all the time in advising instructors.
The attitude an instructor should use when conducting a BFR is an
issue so important to the outcome of a BFR that I have devoted entire
sessions to discussing it.
I'll only say here that a large part of the work we do in the safety
community is devoted to changing the attitudes of BOTH the pilot
taking the BFR AND the CFI giving the BFR. As the system exists now, I
strongly suggest that pilots being cross checked go into that cross
check with a positive attitude and that CFI's giving these cross
checks learn to do them properly. Most all of the issues that occur
between high time pilots and low time instructors are the result of
attitude conflict.
This being said, any GOOD instructor should be able to give a BFR to a
high time pilot arriving with a good attitude without conflict and
with a positive result.
The system needs improvement.

Post by Stealth Pilot
your mileage may vary but I'll bet that you havent flown an hour of
solo time in the last year.

Correct. Is this important to you for some reason? :-))

Dudley Henriques

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Tue, 5 May 2009 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques

Post by Mike Ash

Post by Stealth Pilot
truely you instructors have become insufferable fuckwits rorting civil
aviation. it is time all this BFR nonsense was stopped.

So, did you fail to pass your last one, or do you just hate the idea of
anyone making you prove your skills?
Personally, I think we should not only keep it, but expand it to cars as
well. There are far too many poor drivers on the road, and once they
pass the ridiculous can-you-drive-around-the-block road test they pretty
much get a free pass for life.

Mike,
  These posts appear to be forgeries.
FYI.

I can't address the forgery issue, but I would submit that the
information is biased and seriously flawed.
I think we all are aware that a BFR can be a "tour de' force" for a
bad instructor, and all pilots are well advised to seek out good
instructors for a BFR check. Bad instructors giving hours of hassle
and grief to a pilot taking a BFR should be avoided of course. In my
opinion, instructors who do this are easily discovered and indeed can
be avoided. Fortunately, rather than being the norm as the posts
infer, these instructors are well in the minority. Most CFI's
recognize the purpose of a BFR and use the format as it was intended;
as an opportunity to stay up to speed and possibly enhance the pilot's
skill and knowledge levels.
To address the "it's time to do away with the BFR issue"; I would
comment that the entire WORLD flight safety community from student
pilot to Astronaut is set up on a peer review structure that is geared
toward a continuing cross check on every pilot's continued ability to
function in the environment.

When I go out on a BFR the instructor has a set of things he/she wants
to review, but I have as set as well. Basically I tell them before we
start that I want to review every maneuver under varying conditions.
I want to make sure they are comfortable doing full stalls in my
aircraft (that is approach, departure, and accelerated). I want to do
short field, soft field, normal, and no flap landings. Short field,
soft field, and maximum effort take offs. For a new instructor, or one
who only flys 150's and 172's some of those can be exciting. Hence I
want some one with me who knows what to expect.

One year I got stuck with an instructor who would not do full stalls,
he only wanted imminent which are fine and I believe that recognition
is a necessity, but I also want to do recoveries from the real ones.
I've had 3 unintentional stalls in my years of flying so I do not
believe stall avoidance is an option in the real world.

Post by Dudley Henriques
So prevalent and important is this cross checking system to flight
safety in the Air Show community that in the United States, the FAA
has recognized it's own lack of knowledge in this pilot specialty and
relinquished authority to license practicing display pilots to the
professional community itself where ALL display pilots are registered
and continually cross checked by the ACES program.
The BFR was designed to be the GA equivalent of the ACES program. It
was designed to HELP pilots, NOT to hassle them!

I always take them as an opportunity to learn something new or polish
something old.

Post by Dudley Henriques
ANY CFI worth the certificate (and this includes most of us I'm sure)
will NOT use a BFR to hassle a pilot, but rather use it for the

My opinion only, but I think many pilots who are not properly prepared
feel hassled or think they are being hassled when the CFI is just
trying to get them to do something correctly. That's when a CFI has
to really earn his wages and walk a fine line. We have one guy at the
airport who never makes mistakes, it's always some one else's fault
and he's been that way for at least 20 years. I'd sure hate to fly
with him. OTOH he's a reasonably good pilot, but some day that
attitude is going to get him in trouble.

Post by Dudley Henriques
purpose intended; to help the pilot taking the BFR to sharpen their
skills, show them anything that's new and upgraded system wide, and
generally HELP the pilot in any and all ways possible to be a better
pilot!

Tell the truth now Dudley, Aren't you sometimes...maybe just a little,
tempted to do a steep slip with their side low and the door
unlatched...on occasion<:-))

Honest truth, I know an FBO who took his wife for a ride in an older
"rag wing" and did a steep slip so she could get a better view of
something she wanted to see...when the door on her side popped open
(Wayyy open)<:-)) He really had to do some fast talking. It scared
him and it REALLY scared her.

Post by Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques

BTW, why is my BP almost always high at the docs and normal at home
even after doing a heavy work out?

[Morgans]

Post by Roger (K8RI)
BTW, why is my BP almost always high at the docs and normal at home
even after doing a heavy work out?

Common occurance. (I have docs in the family) They even have a name for
the condition, but I can't remember what they call it.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 9 May 2009 23:57:12 -0400, "Morgans"

Post by Morgans

Post by Roger (K8RI)
BTW, why is my BP almost always high at the docs and normal at home
even after doing a heavy work out?

Common occurance. (I have docs in the family) They even have a name for
the condition, but I can't remember what they call it.

White coat syndrom! <sigh>


Never had a problem with it until I once had high BP

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Stealth Pilot
On Tue, 5 May 2009 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques
When I go out on a BFR the instructor has a set of things he/she wants
to review, but I have as set as well.  Basically I tell them before we
start that I want to review every maneuver under varying conditions.
I want to make sure they are comfortable doing full stalls in my
aircraft (that is approach, departure, and accelerated). I want to do
short field, soft field, normal, and no flap landings. Short field,
soft field, and maximum effort take offs. For a new instructor, or one
who only flys 150's and 172's some of those can be exciting. Hence I
want some one with me who knows what to expect.

This is, as I'm sure you are already aware, the perfect attitude to
take into a BFR. If the instructor is any good at all, he/she will be
using the BFR with you as a learning tool to sharpen up their OWN
skills, both with your airplane, and in the way they interface with
you.
A BFR should be good for BOTH parties involved. In this way, its
purpose is maximized.

Post by Stealth Pilot
One year I got stuck with an instructor who would not do full stalls,
he only wanted imminent which are fine and I believe that recognition
is a necessity, but I also want to do recoveries from the real ones.
I've had 3 unintentional stalls in my years of flying so I do not
believe stall avoidance is an option in the real world.  

My personal opinion on the stall issue is that instructors who teach
stall avoidance instead of varied and full stall experimentation
completely from initiation to recovery are denying the student
training that would make them much safer pilots.

Post by Stealth Pilot

Post by Dudley Henriques
So prevalent and important is this cross checking system to flight
safety in the Air Show community that in the United States, the FAA
has recognized it's own lack of knowledge in this pilot specialty and
relinquished authority to license practicing display pilots to the
professional community itself where ALL display pilots are registered
and continually cross checked by the ACES program.
The BFR was designed to be the GA equivalent of the ACES program. It
was designed to HELP pilots, NOT to hassle them!

I always take them as an opportunity to learn something new or polish
something old.

Excellent attitude. The force is with you! :-)

Post by Stealth Pilot

Post by Dudley Henriques
ANY CFI worth the certificate (and this includes most of us I'm sure)
will NOT use a BFR to hassle a pilot, but rather use it for the

My opinion only, but I think many pilots who are not properly prepared
feel hassled or think they are being hassled when the CFI is just
trying to get them to do something correctly.  That's when a CFI has
to really earn his wages and walk a fine line.  We have one guy at the
airport who never makes mistakes, it's always some one else's fault
and he's been that way for at least 20 years. I'd sure hate to fly
with him.  OTOH he's a reasonably good pilot, but some day that
attitude is going to get him in trouble.

I'd avoid this guy. I much prefer a pilot who is so concerned with
mistakes that he/she spends an entire career attempting to avoid
making them :-)

Post by Stealth Pilot

Post by Dudley Henriques
purpose intended; to help the pilot taking the BFR to sharpen their
skills, show them anything that's new and upgraded system wide, and
generally HELP the pilot in any and all ways possible to be a better
pilot!

Tell the truth now Dudley, Aren't you sometimes...maybe just a little,
tempted to do a steep slip with their side low and the door
unlatched...on occasion<:-))  

I was very fortunate being an independent instructor. Most of the
pilots I flew with either knew me personally or were recommended to me
by someone who knew me. By the time a pilot climbed into the airplane
with me the format and how I worked were pretty much understood. The
result of this (pre-flight workup) was an optimized teaching and
learning period.
Were I not working in this environment, I'm fairly certain I would
have had my share of people I'd have liked to slipped in such a
manner :-))

Post by Stealth Pilot
Honest truth, I know an FBO who took his wife for a ride in an older
"rag wing" and did a steep slip so she could get a better view of
something she wanted to see...when the door on her side popped open
(Wayyy open)<:-)) He really had to do some fast talking.  It scared
him and it REALLY scared her.

I assume he did some fast rudder work before he started all that
talking :-)

Post by Stealth Pilot
BTW, why is my BP almost always high at the docs and normal at home
even after doing a heavy work out?

We have a girlfriend who has the same problem at the docs. They told
her it was nothing but apprehension.

Dudley

[Alan Gerber]

Post by Dudley Henriques
My personal opinion on the stall issue is that instructors who teach
stall avoidance instead of varied and full stall experimentation
completely from initiation to recovery are denying the student
training that would make them much safer pilots.

I don't get this at all.

You can't guarantee that somebody will always avoid stalls quickly enough.
Without repeated recovery practice, an important tool is missing from the
pilot's skill set. Without that tool, what will people do if they can't
recover?

It makes sense to restrict a newly-soloed student. My own CFI put
this restriction on me in the beginning -- she wanted me to start
recovery as soon as the stall horn went off, and not wait for the full
stall. But eventually this restriction was lifted, and I can't imagine
not both learning and practicing stall recovery.

It almost feels like somebody took a look at the transition in training
from spin recovery to spin avoidance, and somehow decided that should also
apply to stalls -- avoidance instead of recovery. This makes no sense to
me, but there's a twisted kind of logic to it that I suppose could appeal
to some.

... Alan

[Dudley Henriques]

Post by Alan Gerber

Post by Dudley Henriques
My personal opinion on the stall issue is that instructors who teach
stall avoidance  instead of varied and full stall experimentation
completely from initiation to recovery are denying the student
training that would make them much safer pilots.

I don't get this at all.
You can't guarantee that somebody will always avoid stalls quickly enough.  
Without repeated recovery practice, an important tool is missing from the
pilot's skill set.  Without that tool, what will people do if they can't
recover?
It makes sense to restrict a newly-soloed student.  My own CFI put
this restriction on me in the beginning -- she wanted me to start
recovery as soon as the stall horn went off, and not wait for the full
stall.  But eventually this restriction was lifted, and I can't imagine
not both learning and practicing stall recovery.
It almost feels like somebody took a look at the transition in training
from spin recovery to spin avoidance, and somehow decided that should also
apply to stalls -- avoidance instead of recovery.  This makes no sense to
me, but there's a twisted kind of logic to it that I suppose could appeal
to some.
... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

I can't speak for other instructors but my personal practice was to
teach stalls simply as one more training maneuver to be mastered along
the learning curve to a pilot certificate. This meant teaching the
student to PERFORM stalls as opposed to avoiding them.
Any pilot should be able to avoid a stall simply by learning to
control angle of attack and how airspeed and g play into the stall
environment. But a WELL TRAINED student should be taught to be
COMFORTABLE with the airplane in the left side of the envelope and
beyond. This means being comfortable in slow flight and in ALL stall
situations through recovery, power on and off, accelerated and cross
controlled.
Not every student gets this training for sure, but I always taught my
students in this manner.

To a really good student, stalls are performed with the same level of
security and confidence as a simple turn around a point.
Flying, and the caliber of pilot you will become, when you get right
down to it, is what you and your instructor make of it, not what the
FAA or the governing authority in your country requires. What's
required is a bare minimum safety standard.

I like both pilots and instructors to think above this level and I've
devoted 50 years of my life toward that steering pilots and
instructors in that direction.
Dudley Henriques

[C Gattman]

Post by Stealth Pilot

Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best three hours of instruction the applicant >>has ever had to a four hours of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)

what a load of crap all this has become.

So, why don't you convince us that your opinion is in any way
relevant to this discussion.

Post by Stealth Pilot
then every two years you go through this ego trip of reinstructing him for hours.

I don't know what they do on your planet, but in America it's the
FAA mandates flight reviews, not the instructors. Anybody who has
actually taken a flight review already understand this, so I suspect
that you're a fraud.

Post by Stealth Pilot
if I was looking at this scene objectively I'd say

Clearly you're not, and it wouldn't matter because what you have to
say is not relevant.

Since you seem to be accusing CFIs of ego, let's rub your nose in
it: A CFI's endorsement in a pilot's logbook means the student or
pilots gets to fly. Your endorsement in somebody's logbook is a waste
of ink and paper.

For the student pilots out there, a flight review is not a
harassment or "reinstruction" session, it's a legally-required
opportunity to polish your skills, correct any weaknesses and keep you
up on current regulations and technology.


-c

[Stealth Pilot]

Post by C Gattman

Post by Stealth Pilot

Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best three hours of instruction the applicant >>has ever had to a four hours of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)

what a load of crap all this has become.

So, why don't you convince us that your opinion is in any way
relevant to this discussion.

gattman I'm a pilot, a real one, who thinks that you are an obnoxious
waste of oxygen.

the only thing I'd advise people is never to waste their time going to
you for flying instruction or a BFR.


Stealth Pilot

[C Gattman]

 So, why don't you convince us that your opinion is in any way relevant to this discussion.

gattman I'm a pilot, a real one, who thinks that you are an obnoxious waste of oxygen.

That's fine. I'm a pilot, a real one, who couldn't care less what
some anonymous twit on the internet has to say.

the only thing I'd advise people is never to waste their time going to you for flying instruction or a BFR.

LOL! So what? The only thing you've provided to back it so far are
personal insults. One apparent significant difference between you and
I is, one of us lacks the courage to use his real name.

If you have a specific problem with something I said, maybe you could
demonstrate the intellectual and testicular fortitude to elaborate
like an actual adult. Otherwise, your opinion is just another bug on
my windshield.

Cheers.

-c

[Roger (K8RI)]

Post by C Gattman

Post by Stealth Pilot

Depending on the examiner, the checkrides out here range from the best three hours of instruction the applicant >>has ever had to a four hours of trick questions and reprimand.  (Regardless of the success of the
checkride.)

what a load of crap all this has become.

So, why don't you convince us that your opinion is in any way
relevant to this discussion.

Post by Stealth Pilot
then every two years you go through this ego trip of reinstructing him for hours.

I don't know what they do on your planet, but in America it's the
FAA mandates flight reviews, not the instructors. Anybody who has
actually taken a flight review already understand this, so I suspect
that you're a fraud.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but last I knew they list a
minimum of 1 hour review and 1 hour flight with much of the contents
of both up to the examiner and pilot. With the last two BFRs the
instructor asked me what I wanted to cover.

Of course he had in mind any changes made to the regs as well as what
I needed to stay safe including intercept knowledge which was on my
list as well.

Do I study for a BFR? In one word, No. I try to stay current and if
I'm current, the BFR turns into a chance to polish my skills. the next
one is going to be a bit different due to circumstances.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

<...>

Post by Stealth Pilot
an ICAO recognised competent registered pilot subjected to "3 hours of
instruction".
what ego trips you fuckwit instructors are on these days.

If you want to go off on a rant, fine. But it would help if you understood
what you are ranting about.

To start with, you might want to understand the difference between what has
been referred to as a "checkride" in this thread and a flight review.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 1 May 2009 19:54:01 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques
How To Pass A Checkride 101
Dudley Henriques CFI Retired
(I get a fair amount of back channel email on flight instruction
issues and this issue has come up quite a lot lately. I'm reposting
this in the hope some student might find it useful.)
Let's talk checkrides for a moment shall we? It's an interesting and
important issue to all of us who fly, and I believe it deserves some
special
attention.

I've always treated check rides and even BFRs like any other flight
with possibly one difference. When I talk to myself I talk out loud.

IOW what ever I'm going to do, what I do, how I do it, recognizing a
mistake, and what I need to do to correct and how I am correcting.
It's a running monologue. I'm not talking to the examiner, but out
loud to myself.

OTOH I don't try to impress the examiner, just let them know what I'm
doing. I also explain when doing the unusual attitude recovery that I
do not ride well. I can do the same things just fine, but some one
else can turn me green in a hurry.

This approach lets the examiner know what I'm doing and what I plan on
doing without having to recognize it. They may have to recognize if I
did what I said, but they know what to expect. This also lets them
know that I know if I made a mistake or if I'm satisfied with
something.

One thing I did point out on the Instrument PTS when trying to get on
course, that we were now paralleling the course about a mile to the
North due to the wind and I needed about a 20 to 30 degree correction
to get on centerline where I'd return to the same heading we were on
at present to hold the center line. At that point, he said "that's
good enough, lets go do some unusual attitude recovery". IOW he knew
at that point I knew how to get back on centerline and stay there. Of
course I was able to back all that up with the instruments and THEN
confirm it with the GPS track on the hand held.

Most of my check rides have been on really rough days<:-))

they will know if it's time to be concerned if what I say starts out
with the words, "Ohhh Shi.....".<:-))