In air FSS and VFR flight plans

[Scien]

Sorry, I guess it is my turn to ask silly, uninformed questions again.

So, I've realized that my current flight instructor is going to be a
bit light on teaching the above due to his personal prejudices and it
is going to land on me to either push him harder to learn more, or
actively teach myself as much as possible. I understand that sounds
horrible, but I assure you it is not as bad as it sounds.

In any case, I have been searching around for answers to some of my
questions, and would like to make sure that my current thoughts are
not entirely unfounded, and possibly get answers for others.

First off, from talking to my instructor it seems that his main issue
with working with them is reception. It seems that he has issues
contacting them from anywhere below 4000 or 4500 AGL around here. I'm
not sure if he is using a discrete frequency or if he is using 122.2,
but I would bet he tries both. Is this typical? We are very flat
around here, so its not a terrain issue I don't think. My instructor
likes to cruise around pretty low it seems, which is a second
prejudice that effects this. Related, minus winds aloft or ceiling
concerns, what altitude would you normally cruise at for a short 50nm
cross country. I understand the whole climb vs GPH trade off issue I
believe. Just looking for opinions. I mean if it is atypical for a
CFI to be recommending crusing below altitudes that I could contact
FSSs at, that would be an answer to my question.

Secondly, in my browsing around in this group, it seems that a common
way around any issue like this is to just phone into the FSS to
activate a flight plan. I had one main question around this. I was
under the impression that activation required an actual time off. If
you are phoning in, it is unlikely that you have this information
yet. How do you guys get around this if you use this method?
Guesstimation?

Also, how far from a VOR or RCO would they typically be able to
receive on a discrete frequency? I would put our home airport at
roughly 20NM from VOR/RCOs that I could use outside of 122.2. I doubt
it is as easy as 'can you receive the VOR, then you could receive the
FSS' due to a few reasons. 20NM sounds like I should be well within
range though, does that seem right?

I probably have more questions, but won't make you suffer through them
for now.

Thanks for the input,
Michael

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Scien
Sorry, I guess it is my turn to ask silly, uninformed questions again.

Michael,

Please don't worry about asking "silly" questions here. There are
lots of great folks here that would love to help.

Post by Scien
So, I've realized that my current flight instructor is going to be a
bit light on teaching the above due to his personal prejudices and it
is going to land on me to either push him harder to learn more, or
actively teach myself as much as possible. I understand that sounds
horrible, but I assure you it is not as bad as it sounds.

The bottom line is that you need to do what you need to do to get
the training you feel you need. Your instructor should be a big
help in helping you understand what that is. If you have to push
him, fine. If he says you don't need to learn something that you
feel you should, you should probably get a second opinion. Perhaps
you can schedule some time with the chief flight instructor at
your school/fbo?

Post by Scien
In any case, I have been searching around for answers to some of my
questions, and would like to make sure that my current thoughts are
not entirely unfounded, and possibly get answers for others.
First off, from talking to my instructor it seems that his main issue
with working with them is reception. It seems that he has issues
contacting them from anywhere below 4000 or 4500 AGL around here.

Are others able to contact them from below those altitudes? Have
you tried yourself?

You can call the flight service station via telephone and ask them
about their coverage. What do they think is a reasonable altitude?
They should know.

Post by Scien
I'm
not sure if he is using a discrete frequency or if he is using 122.2,
but I would bet he tries both.

Are you sure he is trying if he's convinced it won't work?

Post by Scien
Is this typical? We are very flat
around here, so its not a terrain issue I don't think. My instructor
likes to cruise around pretty low it seems, which is a second
prejudice that effects this.

Are you flying at an altitude that would provide you with the ability
to make a safe landing in the event of a power failure? If not, you
should consider flying at an altitude that does.

Obviously, what that altitude is equates to a judgment call. However,
when I'm flying over non-populated, reasonably flat terrain, I'll fly
at a minimum of about 1,500AGL, and usually at 2,500AGL. However, this
is in an area where there are lots of fields to choose from in the
event of a forced landing.

Post by Scien
Related, minus winds aloft or ceiling
concerns, what altitude would you normally cruise at for a short 50nm
cross country. I understand the whole climb vs GPH trade off issue I
believe. Just looking for opinions. I mean if it is atypical for a
CFI to be recommending crusing below altitudes that I could contact
FSSs at, that would be an answer to my question.

One thing I'm confused about. Is it harder to contact FSS via VHF than
to contact, say the local app/dep controller or center controller?

If you're flying at an altitude which prevents you from requesting
flight following, that seems like a problem. If you can talk to the
app/dep controller, why not FSS?

Post by Scien
Secondly, in my browsing around in this group, it seems that a common
way around any issue like this is to just phone into the FSS to
activate a flight plan. I had one main question around this. I was
under the impression that activation required an actual time off. If
you are phoning in, it is unlikely that you have this information
yet. How do you guys get around this if you use this method?
Guesstimation?

Remember that the flight plan is just a way for the FSS to know when
you should be considered overdue at your destination. Although I've
never had to do this, I don't see why you can't call via your cell
phone while in the run-up area, and just tell them that you will be
taking off in less than 5 minutes.

Just make sure that if you don't take off, you call them back and
let them know (same as if you take off, activate your flight plan
from the air, then come back and land). If they think you're on
your way, you'll be considered over due when you don't show up
at your destination as planned.

Post by Scien
Also, how far from a VOR or RCO would they typically be able to
receive on a discrete frequency? I would put our home airport at
roughly 20NM from VOR/RCOs that I could use outside of 122.2. I doubt
it is as easy as 'can you receive the VOR, then you could receive the
FSS' due to a few reasons. 20NM sounds like I should be well within
range though, does that seem right?

Perhaps others can answer this. However, I think you can call the FSS
and ask them. Of course, I don't know if you can still talk to someone
at your local FSS or if you'll just get a warm body at some nameless
facility somewhere on the planet - but you can try.

Post by Scien
I probably have more questions, but won't make you suffer through them
for now.

No problem. Ask all you want!

Best Regards,

Post by Scien
Thanks for the input,
Michael

[Scien]

Post by Mark Hansen
Are others able to contact them from below those altitudes? Have
you tried yourself?

The first question is why I was asking here. Ya I can ask around
whenever I see someone next at the airport, but I was also trying to
get a feel from you guys what your experiences are. As for the second
question, not yet, but I plan to the next time I am up.

Post by Mark Hansen
Are you sure he is trying if he's convinced it won't work?

Heh, nope, not sure. He's probably going off of past experience, and
you are right, he might not be regularly trying anymore.

Post by Mark Hansen
Are you flying at an altitude that would provide you with the ability
to make a safe landing in the event of a power failure? If not, you
should consider flying at an altitude that does.

Yes, we would be able to perform a, well, moderately safe landing if
we had power failure. There are many farms around here, and it is
fairly flat. Most areas of my cross country flights are fairly close
to airports we could use as well. Plus they are easy to use as
checkpoints, heh. We could put it down, and we would have multiple
options in that specific emergency.

Post by Mark Hansen
Obviously, what that altitude is equates to a judgment call. However,
when I'm flying over non-populated, reasonably flat terrain, I'll fly
at a minimum of about 1,500AGL, and usually at 2,500AGL. However, this
is in an area where there are lots of fields to choose from in the
event of a forced landing.

That sounds like about what we/I do.

Post by Mark Hansen
One thing I'm confused about. Is it harder to contact FSS via VHF than
to contact, say the local app/dep controller or center controller?
If you're flying at an altitude which prevents you from requesting
flight following, that seems like a problem. If you can talk to the
app/dep controller, why not FSS?

Hmm, don't know, haven't tried to do that yet either. I was going to
see if he would demonstrate that on our night cross country coming up.

Post by Mark Hansen
Remember that the flight plan is just a way for the FSS to know when
you should be considered overdue at your destination. Although I've
never had to do this, I don't see why you can't call via your cell
phone while in the run-up area, and just tell them that you will be
taking off in less than 5 minutes.

I'm not entirely sure they could understand me over the noise. As for
the flight plan comment, yep, I understand this. Part of the reason
he he fairly lax about activating a flight plan is the fact that he,
and the school know where we are going, and when we are supposed to be
back.

Post by Mark Hansen
Perhaps others can answer this. However, I think you can call the FSS
and ask them. Of course, I don't know if you can still talk to someone
at your local FSS or if you'll just get a warm body at some nameless
facility somewhere on the planet - but you can try.

Ya thats another question I guess I have. I've been using that 1-800
number, and not the ones that should be in the A/FD for our area. I
suppose since the numbers are still in the A/FD, you can still get a
warm body at your local FSS right? Or have they all been forwarded
off to consolidated facilities by Lockheed or whoever these days?

If they are all forwarded, I would have doubts if the person at the
other end would know answers to many of these questions. From what I
have heard, they rarely know names for airports and whatnot that they
cover, and you should have identifiers ready. Sounds like to me that
they have understandably gotten more detached than they used to be,
however, I honestly wouldn't and don't know for sure. Hence my
question.

[Mark Hansen]

Post by Scien

Post by Mark Hansen
Are others able to contact them from below those altitudes? Have
you tried yourself?

The first question is why I was asking here. Ya I can ask around
whenever I see someone next at the airport, but I was also trying to
get a feel from you guys what your experiences are. As for the second
question, not yet, but I plan to the next time I am up.

Well, my experience is I can contact FSS as soon as I'm off the ground,
but I don't fly in your specific area (wherever that is), so it may not
be pertinent *if* the issue is one of obstructions or a weak signal.

Post by Scien

Post by Mark Hansen
Are you sure he is trying if he's convinced it won't work?

Heh, nope, not sure. He's probably going off of past experience, and
you are right, he might not be regularly trying anymore.

Post by Mark Hansen
Are you flying at an altitude that would provide you with the ability
to make a safe landing in the event of a power failure? If not, you
should consider flying at an altitude that does.

Yes, we would be able to perform a, well, moderately safe landing if
we had power failure. There are many farms around here, and it is
fairly flat. Most areas of my cross country flights are fairly close
to airports we could use as well. Plus they are easy to use as
checkpoints, heh. We could put it down, and we would have multiple
options in that specific emergency.

That sounds fine. Safety first.

Post by Scien

Post by Mark Hansen
Obviously, what that altitude is equates to a judgment call. However,
when I'm flying over non-populated, reasonably flat terrain, I'll fly
at a minimum of about 1,500AGL, and usually at 2,500AGL. However, this
is in an area where there are lots of fields to choose from in the
event of a forced landing.

That sounds like about what we/I do.

Post by Mark Hansen
One thing I'm confused about. Is it harder to contact FSS via VHF than
to contact, say the local app/dep controller or center controller?
If you're flying at an altitude which prevents you from requesting
flight following, that seems like a problem. If you can talk to the
app/dep controller, why not FSS?

Hmm, don't know, haven't tried to do that yet either. I was going to
see if he would demonstrate that on our night cross country coming up.

Post by Mark Hansen
Remember that the flight plan is just a way for the FSS to know when
you should be considered overdue at your destination. Although I've
never had to do this, I don't see why you can't call via your cell
phone while in the run-up area, and just tell them that you will be
taking off in less than 5 minutes.

I'm not entirely sure they could understand me over the noise.

You'd be surprised. I've done this to get my IFR clearance at times,
and it works well. I have a hard time hearing him, but he can hear
me just fine.

Post by Scien
As for
the flight plan comment, yep, I understand this. Part of the reason
he he fairly lax about activating a flight plan is the fact that he,
and the school know where we are going, and when we are supposed to be
back.

But of course, we all realize that you are supposed to be learning how
to do all this, so you should do it anyway - as a learning experience,
even if it's not really necessary for the training flight.

Keep in mind, too, that flight following can be a bit of a bother
when trying to do actual flight instruction - so your CFI may want to
not use it during flights where it would get in the way. However, I
still think you should learn how to do it and your CFI should show
you ... at some point.

Post by Scien

Post by Mark Hansen
Perhaps others can answer this. However, I think you can call the FSS
and ask them. Of course, I don't know if you can still talk to someone
at your local FSS or if you'll just get a warm body at some nameless
facility somewhere on the planet - but you can try.

Ya thats another question I guess I have. I've been using that 1-800
number, and not the ones that should be in the A/FD for our area. I
suppose since the numbers are still in the A/FD, you can still get a
warm body at your local FSS right? Or have they all been forwarded
off to consolidated facilities by Lockheed or whoever these days?

That's a good question - which I can't answer. Perhaps someone else
knows - or you could try it and let us know :-)

Post by Scien
If they are all forwarded, I would have doubts if the person at the
other end would know answers to many of these questions. From what I
have heard, they rarely know names for airports and whatnot that they
cover, and you should have identifiers ready. Sounds like to me that
they have understandably gotten more detached than they used to be,
however, I honestly wouldn't and don't know for sure. Hence my
question.

[Scien]

Post by Mark Hansen
But of course, we all realize that you are supposed to be learning how
to do all this, so you should do it anyway - as a learning experience,
even if it's not really necessary for the training flight.
Keep in mind, too, that flight following can be a bit of a bother
when trying to do actual flight instruction - so your CFI may want to
not use it during flights where it would get in the way. However, I
still think you should learn how to do it and your CFI should show
you ... at some point.

Heh, Yep. That's why I am asking about them. I want to learn.

[Peter Dohm]

"Scien" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e3316f10-d46a-4b17-b4f5-***@o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
-----------some snipped---------------

Post by Scien
First off, from talking to my instructor it seems that his main issue
with working with them is reception. It seems that he has issues
contacting them from anywhere below 4000 or 4500 AGL around here. I'm
not sure if he is using a discrete frequency or if he is using 122.2,
but I would bet he tries both. Is this typical? We are very flat
around here, so its not a terrain issue I don't think. My instructor
likes to cruise around pretty low it seems, which is a second
prejudice that effects this. Related, minus winds aloft or ceiling
concerns, what altitude would you normally cruise at for a short 50nm
cross country. I understand the whole climb vs GPH trade off issue I
believe. Just looking for opinions. I mean if it is atypical for a
CFI to be recommending crusing below altitudes that I could contact
FSSs at, that would be an answer to my question.

Two things:

First, based on alledgedly standard climbe and descent angles of about 300
feet per nautical mile and the traditional suggestion of et least one third
of the total flight distance being at the cruising altitude, 4000 to 4500
feet sounds like a reasonable target--actually a reasonable maximum target
altitude for a 50 nautical mile flight.

Second, there can be a lot of difference between radios. About 30 years
ago, I needed to be within a dozen miles to talk to most ground stations
from 2000 to 2500 feet using a Cessna 300 radio, but was never out of range
in the aircraft that were equipped with Rockwell-Collins or King-Bendix
radios. As it happened, I was signed off for at least one aircraft equipped
each of those ways in the inventory of that FBO.

As an aside, if there is only one aircraft involved in this discussion,
don't rule out wiring problems--especially involving the antenna coax and
its connections to the antenna and radio, as well as any junctions in
between. I know that there are not supposed to be any in line junctions is
a typical trainer; but I was an avionics technician for several years, and
learned that a typical solid state radio can communicate with a control
tower through a disconnected coax for at least a half dozen miles--and
further if you have a little altitude!

----------------remainder snipped-------------

Post by Scien
Thanks for the input,
Michael

Peter

[Gezellig]

Post by Scien
I probably have more questions, but won't make you suffer through them
for now.

Dude, stop that. We all are students and for as long as you fly, you
will be one just like us.