Discussion:
Cessna Crash in Quebec
(too old to reply)
Tom Duhamel
2009-05-05 22:19:19 UTC
Permalink
A Cessna 150 with two aboard (a flight instructor and a 20yo female
student) crashed in river Yamaska, in Québec, Canada yesterday
(Monday), killing both. The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire
crossing the river. The small plane was out of St-Hubert airport
(YHU), not far from Montréal, were resides the province's largest
flying school.

The aircraft, with the body of the instructor left inside, were found
and recovered later in the night. The body of the student was only
found this afternoon (Tuesday).

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Life/missing+after+Cessna+goes+down+Yamaska+River/1562832/story.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jDzTBy0D5rOWLw6XUN8LC1LZsKJA
evenSky
2009-05-06 16:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Duhamel
A Cessna 150 with two aboard (a flight instructor and a 20yo female
student) crashed in river Yamaska, in Québec, Canada yesterday
(Monday), killing both. The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire
crossing the river. The small plane was out of St-Hubert airport
(YHU), not far from Montréal, were resides the province's largest
flying school.
The aircraft, with the body of the instructor left inside, were found
and recovered later in the night. The body of the student was only
found this afternoon (Tuesday).
http://www.montrealgazette.com/Life/missing+after+Cessna+goes+down+Ya...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jDzTBy0D...
Thoughts and prayers go out to those affected by this terrible
accident.
Dallas
2009-05-06 17:50:05 UTC
Permalink
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.

A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
--
Dallas
Jim Logajan
2009-05-06 18:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
Running into the wire while in the process of ditching due to engine out
would not be inconsistent with the facts in the news articles. So it isn't
clear yet that the instructor was pulling a stunt.
Dallas
2009-05-06 19:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Logajan
Running into the wire while in the process of ditching due to engine out
would not be inconsistent with the facts in the news articles.
That's true... an actual engine out would be forgivable. However, I think
the writer of the article was just using the word "ditched" as a writer's
quirk because there was no mention or speculation as to cause.

I'd like to think that all CFIs are trained to a high enough standard not
to pull stunts for their amusement, but I did have two instructors during
my training that pulled off a couple of borderline dangerous antics for the
fun of it.
--
Dallas
boB - Copter Six
2009-05-07 06:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
Post by Jim Logajan
Running into the wire while in the process of ditching due to engine out
would not be inconsistent with the facts in the news articles.
That's true... an actual engine out would be forgivable. However, I think
the writer of the article was just using the word "ditched" as a writer's
quirk because there was no mention or speculation as to cause.
I'd like to think that all CFIs are trained to a high enough standard not
to pull stunts for their amusement, but I did have two instructors during
my training that pulled off a couple of borderline dangerous antics for the
fun of it.
Hey Dalli

I can guarantee there are marginally proficient Instructors out there.
Many only teach to build time so they can advance. No problem with that
but there are always some who are minimal instructors.
--
____^____
======================
boB Copter 6
Central Texas - KGRK
DCA 1720 QB Norfolk
======================
____<>____
<>

|¯ |¯| |¯| ¯|¯ |¯ |¯| |¯
|_ |_| |¯ | |¯ |¯\ |¯|
¯ ¯
Thomas Spillman
2009-05-06 18:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
I imagine things may well be different now, but when I was going
through flight training I could always count on my instructor
pulling off the power and saying "forced landing".

I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around. In this case, the best
spot I saw was an old abandoned road about six or seven feet wide
that was paved with deteriorating asphalt. The landing gear on
the C-152 I was flying was about a foot wider than the road.

IIRC, it is quite hard to spot lines like that from the air. My
instructors aways mentioned to be extremely careful around the
boundary lines of fields and pastures, since that's where the
power and telephone lines usually were placed. Any number of
aircraft have flown into guy wires supporting TV towers, for example.
Mike Ash
2009-05-06 19:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Spillman
IIRC, it is quite hard to spot lines like that from the air. My
instructors aways mentioned to be extremely careful around the
boundary lines of fields and pastures, since that's where the
power and telephone lines usually were placed. Any number of
aircraft have flown into guy wires supporting TV towers, for example.
Standard procedure when landing a glider in the field is to not even
attempt to look for lines. Instead, look for poles and buildings, assume
that there are wires between every pair you spot, and plan your approach
accordingly. Also watch for trees, which can hide poles and wires, and
never try for a gap in a tree line because there might be a wire going
across it. Being careful at the boundaries is a good idea, but it's not
uncommon to have wires going through the middle of fields as well.

The notion of guy wires is a bit frightening. I guess the answer there
is to try not to land anywhere near a big tower.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Dallas
2009-05-06 19:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.

I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
--
Dallas
Moiv
2009-05-07 00:36:13 UTC
Permalink
I HATED engine out's
once I got established it was fine but finding a suitable area and making a
plan to get into it always stressed me out
Post by Dallas
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
--
Dallas
boB - Copter Six
2009-05-07 06:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me. I already had a Commercial SEL but when the club
bought an aerobat I went up with a club IP. We climbed to 4000 feet and
he let me enter a spin. After a couple spins I pulled out, shoved the
power to full and started a climb. He asked me what I was doing and I
told him I was climbing for another one. He told me I was crazy but let
me do one more, but that was it, he wanted to go home. A spin was so
much like a return to target in a Cobra, a lot of fun.
--
____^____
======================
boB Copter 6
Central Texas - KGRK
DCA 1720 QB Norfolk
======================
____<>____
<>

|¯ |¯| |¯| ¯|¯ |¯ |¯| |¯
|_ |_| |¯ | |¯ |¯\ |¯|
¯ ¯
Mike Ash
2009-05-07 14:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB - Copter Six
Post by Dallas
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me. I already had a Commercial SEL but when the club
bought an aerobat I went up with a club IP. We climbed to 4000 feet and
he let me enter a spin. After a couple spins I pulled out, shoved the
power to full and started a climb. He asked me what I was doing and I
told him I was climbing for another one. He told me I was crazy but let
me do one more, but that was it, he wanted to go home. A spin was so
much like a return to target in a Cobra, a lot of fun.
Spins definitely are fun. My club's trainers won't spin (they sort of
flop over to the side and immediately unstall, which is exciting the
first time you do it but nowhere near a real spin) so I finally decided
that I should get some spin training elsewhere. I found an operation
near my mother's place in Florida which flies a Blanik, which is an old
two-place metal glider from behind the Iron Curtain (built when that
term still made sense!) that spins nicely.

We towed up to about 2000ft (AGL, MSL, it's all the same in South
Florida) and released. I didn't think this was nearly high enough, but
no matter, because thermals were everywhere. We spent the next half hour
or so climbing to cloudbase, doing spins, climbing to cloudbase again,
more spins. Tremendous fun. And luckily I had a great instructor there
who shared the fun.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Thomas Spillman
2009-05-07 16:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ash
Post by boB - Copter Six
Post by Dallas
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me. I already had a Commercial SEL but when the club
bought an aerobat I went up with a club IP. We climbed to 4000 feet and
he let me enter a spin. After a couple spins I pulled out, shoved the
power to full and started a climb. He asked me what I was doing and I
told him I was climbing for another one. He told me I was crazy but let
me do one more, but that was it, he wanted to go home. A spin was so
much like a return to target in a Cobra, a lot of fun.
Spins definitely are fun. My club's trainers won't spin (they sort of
flop over to the side and immediately unstall, which is exciting the
first time you do it but nowhere near a real spin) so I finally decided
that I should get some spin training elsewhere. I found an operation
near my mother's place in Florida which flies a Blanik, which is an old
two-place metal glider from behind the Iron Curtain (built when that
term still made sense!) that spins nicely.
We towed up to about 2000ft (AGL, MSL, it's all the same in South
Florida) and released. I didn't think this was nearly high enough, but
no matter, because thermals were everywhere. We spent the next half hour
or so climbing to cloudbase, doing spins, climbing to cloudbase again,
more spins. Tremendous fun. And luckily I had a great instructor there
who shared the fun.
I got my PPL back in the days when spin training was required.
Of course, the aircraft I was flying was the Aeronca Champ. To
recover from a spin, just let go of the controls and it would
recover. Of course, that wasn't enough for my instructor so we
had to learn the active technique, as well...

Regards...

Tom
Peter Dohm
2009-05-07 22:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ash
Post by boB - Copter Six
Post by Dallas
Post by Thomas Spillman
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I
before was given the OK to go around.
Yep... same thing... only I think we were three feet AGL. That'll give a
student sweaty palms every time.
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me. I already had a Commercial SEL but when the club
bought an aerobat I went up with a club IP. We climbed to 4000 feet and
he let me enter a spin. After a couple spins I pulled out, shoved the
power to full and started a climb. He asked me what I was doing and I
told him I was climbing for another one. He told me I was crazy but let
me do one more, but that was it, he wanted to go home. A spin was so
much like a return to target in a Cobra, a lot of fun.
Spins definitely are fun. My club's trainers won't spin (they sort of
flop over to the side and immediately unstall, which is exciting the
first time you do it but nowhere near a real spin) so I finally decided
that I should get some spin training elsewhere. I found an operation
near my mother's place in Florida which flies a Blanik, which is an old
two-place metal glider from behind the Iron Curtain (built when that
term still made sense!) that spins nicely.
We towed up to about 2000ft (AGL, MSL, it's all the same in South
Florida) and released. I didn't think this was nearly high enough, but
no matter, because thermals were everywhere. We spent the next half hour
or so climbing to cloudbase, doing spins, climbing to cloudbase again,
more spins. Tremendous fun. And luckily I had a great instructor there
who shared the fun.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Ok, I gotta know...

Was the Blanik flying from Richards or Willis at the time--AFAIK both
are/were the same Blanik.

If so, I got my introductory glider flight at Richards, c1980, in the same
aircraft. It was an absolute blast--the most furn I've ever had in
daylight--and, one of these days, I'll get to go back for more!

Peter
Mike Ash
2009-05-08 01:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dohm
Post by Mike Ash
We towed up to about 2000ft (AGL, MSL, it's all the same in South
Florida) and released. I didn't think this was nearly high enough, but
no matter, because thermals were everywhere. We spent the next half hour
or so climbing to cloudbase, doing spins, climbing to cloudbase again,
more spins. Tremendous fun. And luckily I had a great instructor there
who shared the fun.
Ok, I gotta know...
Was the Blanik flying from Richards or Willis at the time--AFAIK both
are/were the same Blanik.
If so, I got my introductory glider flight at Richards, c1980, in the same
aircraft. It was an absolute blast--the most furn I've ever had in
daylight--and, one of these days, I'll get to go back for more!
Nope, this was at Homestead. This is the web site of the operation:

http://www.miamigliders.com/

Great little operation. The guys who run it have day jobs, and do this
side of things for fun. Soaring conditions are apparently always decent:
crappy for going places, but just fine for staying up and fooling
around. They're very friendly, know their stuff well, and it's fun
flying, so if you (or anyone else) is in the area and wants to have some
fun doing something a little different, check them out.

Looking up the registration number of the glider, it says it was built
in 1992 (it's a Super Blanik) so I guess it's not the same one you flew.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Dallas
2009-05-07 16:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB - Copter Six
Post by Dallas
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me.
Yeah... but you're an ole timer... :- )

Spins aren't on the curriculum any more, my fading memory seems to recall
that they decided they were "too dangerous".

You actually reminded me that I intended to do some spin training and
haven't done it yet. Maybe I'll book a little dual this summer when I'm
bored. If you don't hear from me after that, it's probably because I
stepped on the wrong pedal.
--
Dallas
Tim
2009-05-07 17:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
Post by boB - Copter Six
Post by Dallas
I'd have to say that engine outs were the most fun of the whole curriculum.
It was spins for me.
Yeah... but you're an ole timer... :- )
Spins aren't on the curriculum any more, my fading memory seems to recall
that they decided they were "too dangerous".
You actually reminded me that I intended to do some spin training and
haven't done it yet. Maybe I'll book a little dual this summer when I'm
bored. If you don't hear from me after that, it's probably because I
stepped on the wrong pedal.
Skip spin training and go straight to aerobatic. It includes spins and a lot
more. I highly recommend at lease a few hours for any pilot, no matter how
new.
Moiv
2009-05-07 00:33:51 UTC
Permalink
My instructor did the same thing but he wouldnt cut the engine, just bring
it back to idle.
He would always call teh go around at 500 feet AGL because that's the
minimum allowed altitude over unpopulated areas. There are a couple of
exceptions in the training areas where you're allowed down to 300 feet. The
only time we'd go lower is if were were coming in to an actual airstrip
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
I imagine things may well be different now, but when I was going through
flight training I could always count on my instructor pulling off the
power and saying "forced landing".
I can remember one time when I was about five feet AGL before I before was
given the OK to go around. In this case, the best spot I saw was an old
abandoned road about six or seven feet wide that was paved with
deteriorating asphalt. The landing gear on the C-152 I was flying was
about a foot wider than the road.
IIRC, it is quite hard to spot lines like that from the air. My
instructors aways mentioned to be extremely careful around the boundary
lines of fields and pastures, since that's where the power and telephone
lines usually were placed. Any number of aircraft have flown into guy
wires supporting TV towers, for example.
Ian D
2009-05-07 03:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moiv
My instructor did the same thing but he wouldnt cut the engine, just bring
it back to idle.
He would always call teh go around at 500 feet AGL because that's the
minimum allowed altitude over unpopulated areas. There are a couple of
exceptions in the training areas where you're allowed down to 300 feet.
The only time we'd go lower is if were were coming in to an actual
airstrip
For emergency landing practice, 500' is too high to determine
if a safe landing to a stop could be made. What looks good
from 500' might be full of ruts, or other hazards, so the best way
to learn emergency field selection is to see what it looks like
close up.

On my PPL flight test ride, the FAA inspector had me go down
to about 10' AGL. On my commercial test, there happened to
be a drag strip within gliding distance, and on that occasion,
I actually touched down. As far as minimum altitudes went,
the only thing that applied was the horizontal 1000' distance
from structures, unless landing. The main thing was to be
at an altitude that provided options, in case of engine failure.
D***@yahoo.com
2009-05-09 03:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moiv
My instructor did the same thing but he wouldnt cut the engine, just bring
it back to idle.
He would always call teh go around at 500 feet AGL because that's the
minimum allowed altitude over unpopulated areas. There are a couple of
exceptions in the training areas where you're allowed down to 300 feet. The
only time we'd go lower is if were were coming in to an actual airstrip.
What country are you in? Here's the Canadian law; the US might be
similar:

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Minimum Altitudes and Distances

CAR 602.14

(2) Except where conducting a take-off, approach or landing or where
permitted under section 602.15, no person shall operate an aircraft

(a) over a built-up area or over an open-air assembly of persons
unless the aircraft is operated at an altitude from which, in the
event of an emergency necessitating an immediate landing, it would be
possible to land the aircraft without creating a hazard to persons or
property on the surface, and, in any case, at an altitude that is not
lower than

(i) for aeroplanes, 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle located
within a horizontal distance of 2,000 feet from the aeroplane,

(ii) for balloons, 500 feet above the highest obstacle located within
a horizontal distance of 500 feet from the balloon, or

(iii) for an aircraft other than an aeroplane or a balloon, 1,000 feet
above the highest obstacle located within a horizontal distance of 500
feet from the aircraft; and

(b) in circumstances other than those referred to in paragraph (a), at
a distance less than 500 feet from any person, vessel, vehicle or
structure.

Permissible Low Altitude Flight

602.15 (1) A person may operate an aircraft at altitudes and distances
less than those specified in subsection 602.14(2) where the aircraft
is operated at altitudes and distances that are no less than necessary
for the purposes of the operation in which the aircraft is engaged,
the aircraft is operated without creating a hazard to persons or
property on the surface and the aircraft is operated

(a) for the purpose of a police operation that is conducted in the
service of a police authority;

(b) for the purpose of saving human life;

(c) for fire-fighting or air ambulance operations;

(d) for the purpose of the administration of the Fisheries Act or the
Coastal Fisheries Protection Act;

(e) for the purpose of the administration of the national or
provincial parks; or

(f) for the purpose of flight inspection.

(2) A person may operate an aircraft, to the extent necessary for the
purpose of the operation in which the aircraft is engaged, at
altitudes and distances less than those set out in

(a) paragraph 602.14(2)(a), where operation of the aircraft is
authorized under Subpart 3 or section 702.22; or

(b) paragraph 602.14(2)(b), where the aircraft is operated without
creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface and the
aircraft is operated for the purpose of

(i) aerial application or aerial inspection,

(ii) aerial photography conducted by the holder of an air operator
certificate,

(iii) helicopter external load operations, or

(iv) flight training conducted by or under the supervision of a
qualified flight instructor.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________


So: According to 602.14 (2)(B) we only need to stay "500 feet from any
person, vessel, vehicle or structure" if we're not over a built-up
area.

And in 602.15(2)(b)(iv) we can cut even those limits if we're flight
training and don't present a risk to any persons or property.

Dan

Tim
2009-05-06 18:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
--
Dallas
Not to ignore the input of Thomas and Jim, but you might be real surprised
how many people make the mistake of low flying rivers, only to find power
lines. It happens a LOT.
rob
2009-05-07 06:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire?  That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board.    :-(
--
Dallas
Not to ignore the input of Thomas and Jim, but you might be real surprised
how many people make the mistake of low flying rivers, only to find power
lines. It happens a LOT.
From November 3, 2006 (Central Arizona)

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/KTVKLNews20061103_plane-crash.1440a3f8.html
Tom Duhamel
2009-05-08 03:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by rob
Post by Tim
Post by Dallas
The aircraft apparently hit a phone wire crossing the river.
Why was a flight instructor and student flying low enough over a river to
clip a phone wire? That would be about 25' to 50' AGL.
A flight instructor should have better sense than to pull a stunt like
that, especially with a student on-board. :-(
--
Dallas
Not to ignore the input of Thomas and Jim, but you might be real surprised
how many people make the mistake of low flying rivers, only to find power
lines. It happens a LOT.
From November 3, 2006 (Central Arizona)
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/KTVKLNews20061103_plane-crash.1440a3f8.html
"The wreckage was spotted by a helicopter crew dispatched by Arizona
Public Service Company to check on a problem with the power lines in the
area."

Ooch! I don't think we can possibly imagine the feeling of the
helicopter crew at the moment
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